What was Gandalf's plan

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

So, something has been bothering me for a while. Just what did Gandalf expect was going to happen when and if Frodo actually made it to the Cracks of Doom? Even safe and warm, in the safety and comfort of the shire, far from Mordor and Sauron, even when he knew perfectly well that his fire in Bag End would not actually harm the ring Frodo was already unable to throw the ring into the fire. So what did Gandalf think was going to happen if everything went as well as possible and they actually made to to Orodruin?

Was Gandalf simply going to push Frodo into the Lava? He said he could not force Frodo to throw away the ring without breaking his mind. Was he going to steal the ring from him and destroy it himself at the very last? That seems chancy.

Over and above the long shot of even getting the ring to the mountain safely, I don't see any viable way he could have expected the quest to be completed. The fact that it was is essentially the most ridiculous stroke of blind luck imaginable.

Just seems like more than a little flaw int he whole operation. What do you guys think?

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:09 am

ForgottenLore wrote:

Was Gandalf simply going to push Frodo into the Lava? He said he could not force Frodo to throw away the ring without breaking his mind. Was he going to steal the ring from him and destroy it himself at the very last? That seems chancy.

Sorcerous Blast! muwahahaha no more Frodo OR ring. :lol:

If you really think about it though, what other choice did Gandalf have beyond that fool's hope? He openly admitted it was a fool's hope but he would still hope. He couldn't rally all the Free Peoples to a single banner as Sauron could easily crush it with his armies. They could not hide it for it would only prolong the inevitable. They already ruled out Bombadil as even he would eventually fall. They could not send it to the Undying Lands for it was a mortal concern and therefore to stay among the mortal realms. So really, what could Gandalf have planned differently? No one else could carry it long enough to throw it into the lava without being mastered by it(maybe Bombadil but he wasn't interested).

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Yeah, but still, some consideration for the last move seems warranted.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:48 pm

ForgottenLore wrote:

Yeah, but still, some consideration for the last move seems warranted.

You obviously haven't worked in the government or for a large private enterprise. :-D

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:44 pm

As it happens, gandal;f did think that Gollum would play an important role later on. maybe he suspected that it would be fo its destruction.

Ares B · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:06 pm

He had faith in the guidance of Eru and that what was supposed to happen, would happen if the good people did their part and stayed on the path.

Hamster Baggins · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:25 pm

Maybe when the fellowship was sleeping, Gandalf was secretly coaching Gollum and giving him tips on how to tackle hobbits on ledges that drop into lava.

Gandalf: "Dude... you need to man up and take back your precious?" :gandalf:

Gollum: "But hobbit master is nice to Smeagol... nice master" :gollum:

Gandalf: "Frodo said your momma was freaky" :dizzy:

Gollum: "@&%$^#@ little hobbitses must die!!!!" :-X

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:13 pm

WayUnderTheMountain wrote:

If you really think about it though, what other choice did Gandalf have beyond that fool's hope? He openly admitted it was a fool's hope but he would still hope. He couldn't rally all the Free Peoples to a single banner as Sauron could easily crush it with his armies. They could not hide it for it would only prolong the inevitable. They already ruled out Bombadil as even he would eventually fall. They could not send it to the Undying Lands for it was a mortal concern and therefore to stay among the mortal realms. So really, what could Gandalf have planned differently? No one else could carry it long enough to throw it into the lava without being mastered by it(maybe Bombadil but he wasn't interested).

They actually figured Tom would be more likely to lose it than to be overcome. Anyways, Gandalf was kinda worried about Frodo being on his own when he met up with the Three Hunters in Fangorn Forest until he heard Sam had gone with him. He had to have known that Sam would help Frodo in terms of moral support which could have been enough for Frodo to destroy it. Then he must have also taken Gollum into acount. He had some gift of forsight, he said to Frodo that even the Wise cannot see all ends, implying that he had seen SOME ends in which it was a success. Beyond that, it was just a fool's hope.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Draugluin wrote:

They actually figured Tom would be more likely to lose it than to be overcome. Anyways, Gandalf was kinda worried about Frodo being on his own when he met up with the Three Hunters in Fangorn Forest until he heard Sam had gone with him. He had to have known that Sam would help Frodo in terms of moral support which could have been enough for Frodo to destroy it. Then he must have also taken Gollum into acount. He had some gift of forsight, he said to Frodo that even the Wise cannot see all ends, implying that he had seen SOME ends in which it was a success. Beyond that, it was just a fool's hope.

Ah, but does not Elrond say that if all the other lands fell into darkness eventually even Bombadil would fall, last as he was first? I agree that he'd more likely lose it or throw it away but even if he didn't it was just prolonging the inevitable.

whafrog · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:24 pm

Ares B wrote:

He had faith in the guidance of Eru and that what was supposed to happen, would happen if the good people did their part and stayed on the path.

This pretty much sums it up. Gandalf was a Maia and took part in the original song of creation which was basically the template of fate. So he would have known a great deal of what was to come. As a human avatar, he still had flashes of insight or visions of what path he should take...most of the Wizards and more powerful Elves had the gift of foresight. Even Aragorn had a bit of it.

If you read the "chance meeting" story, Gandalf describes what made him choose Bilbo to go with Thorin and company to the Lonely Mountain...Gandalf "knew" Bilbo had to go along if Smaug was to be dealt with. He didn't know the details or have a plan, just that Bilbo had to go, and his being there would trigger events.

So it's likely Gandalf didn't have a "plan" for dealing with the One Ring, just trusted in his heart and insight and having the fortitude to put one foot in front of the other and moving all the required pieces into place. Probably why he wanted to go into Moria in the first place: he knew something important had to be done there, but only when the Balrog appeared did he finally understand that *he* needed to sacrifice himself...and he did it anyway.

So when talking about Frodo's mission to Pippin, he knew it was a fool's hope when looked at objectively, but also knew in his heart what was right. This "heart vs head" theme is pretty strong with Tolkien's works.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:49 pm

whafrog wrote:

So it's likely Gandalf didn't have a "plan" for dealing with the One Ring, just trusted in his heart and insight and having the fortitude to put one foot in front of the other and moving all the required pieces into place. Probably why he wanted to go into Moria in the first place: he knew something important had to be done there, but only when the Balrog appeared did he finally understand that *he* needed to sacrifice himself...and he did it anyway.

So when talking about Frodo's mission to Pippin, he knew it was a fool's hope when looked at objectively, but also knew in his heart what was right. This "heart vs head" theme is pretty strong with Tolkien's works.

He also knew that the hobbits would need to go along, all four not just Frodo and Sam. It was Pippin who got the attention of the goblins and thus Durin's Bane, which led to Gandalf dying/killing DB. If this hadn't happened, then 1. Gandalf wouldn't have become the White, so Theoden would never have gotten ahold of himself, so the War in Rohan, and thus the War at large, would have been lost, 2. DB would have been free to attack Lothlorien, which would have likely been the end of Lorien and then Mirkwood. Merry weakened the WK enough for Eowyn to kill him, which really helped win the Battle of Pelenor Fields. If Gandalf hadn't had a feeling that they should come in place of say Glorfindel, none of that would have happened, with the possible loss of the War, even if the Ring was destroyed.

Elrond didn't know that Tom would fall last as he was first, it was speculation, I also think it was Erestor, not Elrond who said that. (not sure, don't have the book on me right now).
EDIT: It was Glorfindel, not Erestor who said it.

Anyhow, my theory is that Tom was basically a fail-safe for the world. In other words, he either triggers the downfall of Morgoth/Sauron if they were to conquer Middle-Earth, or that he triggers Dagor Dagorath in some way. This would explain why he is unconcerned with anything outside his domain (he would however act if Sauron invaded the Old Forest) and why he had such incredible power. Anyway, Tolkien didn't even know what to make Tom, so it's kinda a moot point.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:51 pm

YOu also forgot that Pippin slayed a Troll Chief.

And what is DB?

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:20 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

YOu also forgot that Pippin slayed a Troll Chief.

And what is DB?

Durin's Bane. That is true, I completely forgot about that. It's funny, most people think that Merry did SO much and Pippin did nothing and was an idiot, whereas Pippin did SO much more than Merry, while still being an idiot. Pippin also was the one who got himself and Merry away from the Uruk-hai near Fangorn.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:21 pm

I agree, Pippin was very so much. I think the reason many people think Pippin's useless was because of Boyd's portrayal of him in the films.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:27 pm

His portrayal was accurate, just PJ didn't show him doing that much, what he did do seemed like horrible mistakes at the time and most people don't give it much thought about what would have happened.

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Gandalf just knew that no matter the loses, good would hold victory to the very end :lol:

GodlessM · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:09 am

ForgottenLore wrote:

So, something has been bothering me for a while. Just what did Gandalf expect was going to happen when and if Frodo actually made it to the Cracks of Doom? Even safe and warm, in the safety and comfort of the shire, far from Mordor and Sauron, even when he knew perfectly well that his fire in Bag End would not actually harm the ring Frodo was already unable to throw the ring into the fire. So what did Gandalf think was going to happen if everything went as well as possible and they actually made to to Orodruin?

Was Gandalf simply going to push Frodo into the Lava? He said he could not force Frodo to throw away the ring without breaking his mind. Was he going to steal the ring from him and destroy it himself at the very last? That seems chancy.

Over and above the long shot of even getting the ring to the mountain safely, I don't see any viable way he could have expected the quest to be completed. The fact that it was is essentially the most ridiculous stroke of blind luck imaginable.

Just seems like more than a little flaw int he whole operation. What do you guys think?

But that was one of the most important themes of the story; fighting for hope when no hopes remains. It is said several times in the book that Gandalf and Elrond never really saw the quest as finishing, but if they didn't at least try then they were goners along with the rest of Middle-Earth.

oliverc21 · **Posted:** Fri May 18, 2012 10:49 am

I THINK GANDALF WAS SCARED OF SAURON AND SO HE PLANNED TO STEAL THE RING AND JOIN HIM.

What was Gandalf's plan

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