WOTR houserules

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Frankly, I would redo Very Hard to Kill with its own table

1-2: Nothing
3-5: 1 wound
6-8: 2 wounds
9: 3 wounds
10: Dead

or something similar.

It has always bugged me that there was such a massive jump from VHtK to EHtK but such a small one from HtK to VHtK. Then, if you really think basic Hard to Kill also needs tweaking, just rework it's table to match the current VHtK.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:57 pm

That would make sense for kost but tha would make troll chiefs sigificantly harder than normal trolls which seems unlikely.

Xelee · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:45 pm

ForgottenLore wrote:

Frankly, I would redo Very Hard to Kill with its own table

1-2: Nothing
3-5: 1 wound
6-8: 2 wounds
9: 3 wounds
10: Dead

or something similar.

It has always bugged me that there was such a massive jump from VHtK to EHtK but such a small one from HtK to VHtK. Then, if you really think basic Hard to Kill also needs tweaking, just rework it's table to match the current VHtK.

Yes and 6s (including with might) get to roll again. That would be a fair compromise.

I think there is pretty broad agreement that monsters are another troop type that has issues so once the workload clears I'll repost the houserules list with a few edits and the inclusion of something like:
1. FL's table above + H2K is now what VH2K was before + Mounted Wraiths are all VH2K all the time and battlehost be damned.
2. Non hero monsters may attempt to double at -1 (-2 if within 6")

Then more controversially:
3. Captains now cost whatever a coy of troops costs + banner plus musician costs the same as a single upgrade. Taskmaster is still extra and goblin drum costs one coy as banner + drum does (mull over these ones, I really think it works but I accept it is out of left field). Given all the relevant considerations I think these kinds of repricings are what is needed as even dropping the price like I did before still did not make me want to consider them otherwise. What should Shamans cost? 75pts?
4. Wings of Terror now allows auto-pass of doulbing rolls, count as having musician, reroll charges.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:13 pm

Xelee wrote:

Captains now cost whatever a coy of troops costs + banner plus musician costs the same as a single upgrade. Taskmaster is still extra and goblin drum costs one coy as banner + drum does (mull over these ones, I really think it works but I accept it is out of left field). Given all the relevant considerations I think these kinds of repricings are what is needed as even dropping the price like I did before still did not make me want to consider them otherwise. What should Shamans cost? 75pts?

I'm a little confused. Do you mean that the Captains cost the same as his command company sans upgrades while Banner Bearer and musician cost the same as the Captain? If it is, I'm all for it. The standard army I've seen for WotR has more Epic or Legendary Heroes than Captains (save for the Moria List) which I think is a little wrong. I'd be willing to have my RIders of Rohan Eoreds take 50 point 'full command' options versus Epic Heroes because its utility/point is a little more desireable than it was under the original rules.

Xelee · **Posted:** Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:26 pm

Sorry the text was a little terse:
1. Cost of Captain upgrade = the cost per coy. So + 15pt for goblins without shields, +60 pt for Elven Cohort. A tidied up version would have to make clear that the cost for Captain with goblins with shields is +20 not +15.
2. Cost for Banner + Musician = the cost per coy. As above.
So ROR with Captain, banner + hornblower pay +60 pts to get the lot. Since I've also changed how ES works, I'd actually consider at least the Captain and to be honest something that likely adds +2" move and gets me out of having to use might on charges (so potentially two heroic fights/save me from ES in Duels) for only another 30pts is not a bad deal.

Fineprint would likely have to make clear that you can put an Epic in a fully upgraded Cav command coy. Sigh.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:42 am

This is starting to get complicated. I think all captains being 50 points is fair. One of the GW articles said that might points (least ways in development) cost 25 pts apiece. This means that you also get +1 courage for the whole formation and +1 fight to the company basically for free. Granted, a goblin is no where near as good as an Elf captain, but his countered by the fact that you can still get 3-4 goblin companies for 1 elf company, outweighing the fact that the elven captain is better. Shamans are overpriced, especially when you can get wraiths and of couse heroes like Kardush, MoS and Druzhag.

Xelee · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:55 am

Hi Drauglin, unfortunately you can't have a few houserules without breaking some eggs but I remain committed to the "single page rule." On advantage of indexing it to coy cost is that I really do think the relative value of heroes alters a lot according to what unit they are in and this is a space saving way of indexing that. If ES is just +2, then the Cohort Commander is pretty formidable in relative terms, where as a Goblin Captain just gives the ability to double and die on average to just about all other captains out there.

I am aware of the designers opinion about how much things should cost but they also gave us Khamul and 125pts and Sauron at 500pts so I have been running a little side-project in testing ways that we might improve on their original thinking. :lol:

Honest question to people, do you see people taking heroes and upgrades in goblin armies that are actually any good? I certainly wouldn't. In fact, given the other heroes that will still be in play, I am not entirely sure that I'd take Heroes and upgrades for them even with these changes. I guess the aim of the costing is "sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn't" so it is still not a good one if people either always would or always wouldn't.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:42 pm

Xelee wrote:

Honest question to people, do you see people taking heroes and upgrades in goblin armies that are actually any good? I certainly wouldn't. In fact, given the other heroes that will still be in play, I am not entirely sure that I'd take Heroes and upgrades for them even with these changes. I guess the aim of the costing is "sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn't" so it is still not a good one if people either always would or always wouldn't.

I'd be tempted to use Captains if I allied in a Shade, and/or when playing at 3,000pts, because they'd be wasting might killing them. A Drum for the one biggest formation perhsps, but definately no Shamans.

Celebdae · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:33 am **Posts:** 2

In case you are interested, here's a link to the houserules our gaming group has been using recently:
http://www.nopat.fi/wp-content/uploads/ ... 2-2011.pdf

Many of the rules are based on your nice rules Xelee, but we have added a few extra while still trying to keep the changes to the original rules somewhat low. The main changes are:
-Doubling the effect of Fight value for infantry and cavalry
-Halving the effect of a failed Terror check
-Making you able to Heroic Duel ANYONE, but normal troopers casualties being a bit lower
-Modifying the effect of fall back into less dramatic and making it a bit more common

If you have any comments please share them. We are modifying the rules slightly as we play in trying to get as balanced gaming experience as it is possible in WotR without rewriting the whole rulebook :-D

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:02 pm

Your 'change' of the Shadow Lord isn't a change at all because thats how it works against artillery anway.

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:17 pm

Hi Celebdae,

I like what you've done - a little more in-depth but still short. The way you boost fight for battleskill but add a clause to effectively make terror add what it did before (ie base fight but not double) keeps this in bounds. I would be inclined to extend this to monsters, which I feel under-perform now. What do others think?

Elves lose a little of the relative benefit of terror the way you have it but it still boosts them in duel (ans ES is relatively less important under houserules) and interferes with charges.

One issue, that I had not properly considered, was the degree to which adjusting hero/upgrade points makes legendaries more of a dog than they are currently. I am inclined to think that this probably doesn't mean too much in practical terms (since either the formation was worth it originally, or it wasn't and very few were) and the only way to 'fix' the problem is to actually go back and rework them all. However, your discounts package isn't a bad way to go.

Celebdae · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:33 am **Posts:** 2

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Your 'change' of the Shadow Lord isn't a change at all because thats how it works against artillery anway.

Good to know if I somehow end up playing this game without using our houserules - even though I seriously doubt it will happen :-D

There might be also some other cases were we have printed our general interpretation of the rules at once just to avoid arguments!

Xelee wrote:

I like what you've done - a little more in-depth but still short. The way you boost fight for battleskill but add a clause to effectively make terror add what it did before (ie base fight but not double) keeps this in bounds. I would be inclined to extend this to monsters, which I feel under-perform now. What do others think?

I agree that generally monsters need help, but someone like Stone Giant really doesn't need 7 (or so) extra attacks! The problem how I see it has been more that especially H2K monsters die very easily so we've just made them a bit more tough. The killing part isn't that bad IMHO. Still there haven''t been many H2K or VH2K monsters in our games lately so maybe it could be further adjusted.

Anyway thanks for the comments. If you have more I'm ready to listen. As I said our plan is to keep modifying the rules slightly to get the best possible result. Especially if you have good arguments which armies are possibly too good or too weak under these rules I'm all ears.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:54 pm

You should make Gift of Foresight work on a 5+, like Khamul's. I would also make Cirdan have a mastery level of 2.

Slythar · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:48 pm

Last night we tested a change to Spirit Grasp. (Added All misses are then rerolled vs Defense)
Also 'We Stand Alone' can on the double as if they had a hero in it.
We also gave the Balrog Spirit Grasp and Spirit Walk.

Balrog - Did tons of damage especially with Spells of Ruin. It was taken down easily with Legolas, Glorfindel, Galadrial. We found the Balrog an interesting debate vs. Dragon with these special rules.

Castellian (3c) - They were amazing. They held pretty much the center on the table for 4-5 turns. Might be overcosted, hard to say but they were definately worthwhile.

Ghosts (2c) - They were respectable but versus the Castellian they were no match.

On the doubling these units definitely made them more useful. Normally the Castellians wouldn't even be able to enter combat till late in the game. This way they were up in the fray in turn 3.

We'll be trying these again because it was a very enjoyable game.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:40 am

So would you say that the Balrog was worth the 500 pts when you add the special rules? I know that the dragon is about as good for fewer points.

Slythar · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:14 am

The Dragon is still a better buy after these improvements. The Balrog is a better caster with the rerolls, uses a smaller base and has more options with Spirit walk

Xelee · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:14 pm

The key issue with the Balrog is his relative vulnerability to spells. The Dragon has these vulnerabilities too but not to anything like the same degree and not at all if you try to match good vs evil. He just struggles vs good period.

I think that if a formation has "We Stand Alone" or can't buy a hero, then it should definitely be allowed to double for free and I'll include that in my list of changes. I think even that one change will make spirit troops a lot better though I think that currently their other issue is vulnerability to hits and perhaps opponents should have to rerolls hits vs them instead?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:28 pm

Or maybe they should just have higher defences like the SBG ones, So Ghosts defence 7, and maybe Spectres defence 6.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:31 pm

Why does the dragon struggle against good?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:34 pm

I'm not sure, I know the balrog does because you can cast that spell that does damage only to Spirits.

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