Hi GtW yes there are few changes - just Wings of Terror, a new VH2K table (which is FL's, modified to allow a chance for a double 6 + 1 might to kill it) and the point about Battlehosts on top of those you mentioned. The prior list had already incorporated a lot of the feedback in this thread already but I think you guys have made some good recent suggestions that were in keeping with the objectives of this set.

You have reminded me to consider a readjustment though: 'We stand Alone' Cavalry probably shouldn't get to double for free, just the infantry.

Lost Cardolan,

What prompted the Lances rule change was that Minas Tirith Knights were clearly better as cav and were cheaper and still available as allies. That is, I am aiming to make the Eored a more fearsome force on the field than Minas Tirith Cavalry - who shouldn't be a standard of comparison for Middle Earth Cavalry but are in WOTR! They are equivalent on the charge but the Eored can add missile weapons to that. Without lances, the Cav that we see actually making effective shock charges in the movies can't really, while the ones who failed miserably can. To be clear, the 'lances' are a rule effect to give massed Rider charges +1 to hit and will be a combination of last minute throwing weapons, weight of horses, and superior horsemanship. Hopefully with a rule change like that, people will stop thinking of Knights of Minas Tirith first when considering excellent cavalry.

The spirits do have quite a punch in WOTR terms: 4+ to hit against most targets and vs evil troops and using a spell that can easily be 3+, which is absolutely savage by the standards of this game's probability. I like GtW's suggestion to give them more defense because they are awfully brittle for such expensive troops and so can be very hard to get your points worth when your opponent plays properly. The one exception is the Court of the Dead King, which people seem to have dropped like a hot potato since the mis-print was clarified but do have a movement rule that actually allows them to do what they are probably supposed to... unless their opponent deploys in depth.

The idea of testing them out with more hitting power (or the ability to just always shadowstride 12" for the inf?) might not be a bad one though. Another suggestion might be to have them strike at the same time as monsters.

I don't own any spirits because the idea of fielding them as-is just seems laughable to me. I know what my opponents would do to them and I've done it to theirs, when they have appeared. However, it might be worthwhile for Angmar/Gondor players to test different approaches? I have bowed to 'public pressure' a bit in modifying these but a number of posters, many of which know their stuff re: WOTR, have all commented that these need some kind of fix. FWIW, even with D7 they still need to be played carefully as they are obviously a priority target and most troops will kill on 6s vs what are likely to be smaller units. I really see the higher defense as protection against a turn or two of stray bowfire, spells, and the fact that they inevitably take hits from melee.

Another page of Fates/Fortunes and spells might not be a bad project. There are some spells that need a boost that I have omitted for space reasons as well.

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I don't understand why the change in overlord instead of rewording Heroic Move. Other than the Mumak, what is the issue?

For the spells that need to be boosted, other than Guide Arrows (make it the arrow equivalant of Dark Fury), and maybe Panic Beast (maybe have it cause damage too) I would leave them all the same. The only spells that really need to be changed are the spells of Darkness. Make Strength from Corruption weaker (at least against monsters) remove the minimum of 1 from Black Dart and maybe change Black Breath to be Epic/Legendary formation only.

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Hi Forgottenlore - the Overlord bit is in there because several people, Blackmist included swore that this was the way the rule was meant to be played and were pretty adamant about it. I'm not too wedded to the idea, in fact I think they've read RAW wrong.... but you know me and rules interpretations

The other one I possibly should think about including is the suggestion to double the impact of fight on battle skill for Cav and monsters. A few people have been pushing for that, going right back to Glabro's posts last year. My one worry would be if this made Elves too 'hard'.

So what are people's feelings on:
1. Overlord. Just disallow the effect on EH2K or on everyone? For myself, I do not see why you get to call some heroic actions but not duels, surely you either get to call heroic actions or you don't?
2. Doubling the effect of fight on battleskill so ever 1pt of margin generates two extra dice.

Draugluin. I like the suggestion for guide arrows. I've actually seen Panic beast work really well - it sent my Ghulhavar racing back out of the fight for a turn in one game. Black Dart is, I think, ok as is and is a powerful threat used the right way. The Black Breath suggestion is good.

I think most would agree that:
1. Darkness needs a serious fix to effects and casting score. SfC affecting only your own units, black breath as Draugluin suggests and WoT as I have already done.
2. Ruin is powerful but possibly ok with just some bumps to casting score.
3. Wilderness needs one-two spells fixed but is otherwise cool.
4. Dismay is fine as-is.
5. Command might need some casting scores looked at for lowering? One thing I like about command is that the only casters who use it are all pretty wise Epics so it perhaps deserves a bump.

If most do not agree, let me know

I could see that easily fitting on another sheet (formatted like the quick ref?) with some modified fortunes/fates.

Thanks for all the feedback.

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I have argued quite strongly in the past that Overlord IS meant to be usable by other formations, the Overlord is leading from a distance. The only problem with that interpretation that I have heard before is heroic moving a mumak for ridiculous trample potential but I think that Heroic Move should be phrased as increasing your move stat which fixes that problem. Hadn't heard about the duel issue before, but I don't think that is a big deal or anything.

Doubling effect of Fight for Monsters and Cavalry. Hmm. I don't know. I would certainly be willing to try it, my trolls always SUUUCK!!!!.

I House tested doubling the effects of fight. (Typo fixed)

+ Lots more dice
+ Makes Fight value as good or better than Strength value
- Theoden is unbelievable
- Failed Terror test, its guaranteed to be ugly.
- Black Breath, ugly

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Doubling the effects of Strength? or Fight?

Lol TWO typos in two posts then. Sorry FL, for mine it was supposed to be INFANTRY and Cav. I am not against the idea of using it for monsters but I've already given them quite a boost so they are probably ok as useful units to team up with other formations and do not need to be able to inflict heaps of hits themselves in order to have an impact.

If Overlord can be used for non-heroes then I can see it working two ways:
1. Any non-hero can call any heroic action (my preferred, it seems more consistent and a troll should be able to have a crack at another hero) and so I would rule it out for any EH2K.
OR 2. Mumak can't heroic move and only units that already had/were a hero can duel.

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The thing about Black Dart is that it costs the hero a minimum of 1 might, regardless of the die result. Removing the 1 (least ways for might) minimum makes it quite a bit harder to drain a hero of might. As it is, 2 wraiths can drain Boromir of might in a maximum of 3 turns. Making Black Dart and Black Breath the Epic/Legendary casters only would keep a shaman from using either, but they still are a little to powerful, since a RW can take out a hero that is supposed to be much more powerful pretty easily.

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If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

@Xelee I think it is ridiculously stupid for a monster that isn't a hero to call a heroic duel, if you did that you'd have to be fair and let a company of high elves or werewolves declare a duel too, and since neither they nor non-hero monsters are heros they cannot physically duel, I believe that that is the one exception to every thing being able to call all heroic actions, a duel isn't the same, you have to be a hero (or Cave Drake) to take part in a duel.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Wraith spam is an ever present issue. One method is to just ban it. Another is to make the player pay more for each nazgul. EAch Nazgul you add to a list seems to increase the effectiveness of the collective.

So even if they are reduced to Mastery 2 now. How about each additional Nazgul increases the point cost by 25 points (with the premium added on at the end for the Witch king):
First Nazgul costs the 125.
Second will be 150
Third 175
Fourth 200
Fifth 225...

Under the old system (as per rulebook) 5x nazgul = 5 x125 = 625 points
Under this method. 5 x Nazgul = 125 + 150 + 175 + 200 +225 = 875.
(If one of those five was the Witch king the total would be 875 +75 = 950)

250 points extra means is a whole lot less Morannon's to hide the Blighters in.

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Hi daersalon, if you aren't playing with housrules like this to change them then I'd suggest the easiest backup is to either: Just limit the number of Epic Heroes OR have a list of heroes that you can only have a certain number of while allowing certain other heroes without restriction. I've seen a few events do this.

Cheers

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Sorry to bring back your post but a couple of points concerning 2 of the wraiths became apparant to me in your houserules, the Undying's been made totally defunct as you gave his special rule to every hero, so unless you make his rule something like, he passes Will of Iron on the Roll of a 2+ thenyou might as well just take the Mouth and save a few pts. The tainted is also restricted as his rule is about stopping heroes courage from having an effect, as your rule only stops Inspiring Leaders, but you may want to think on it.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Hi Gmtw, sorry this got lost in a busy period for me till the other topic jogged my memory:

I'd still take any Wraith over the mouth - good fight and courage and the option to Epic Strike, not to mention access to a whole another spell list.

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I like and dont like the idea of house rules, its great to be creative and think for yourselves, but for me i dont want to have house rules and then when i leave the house for gw i will have to remember the offical rules, but still perhaps a new rule book will come out?

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Hi I'm an Ent - yes it's a bit of a funny one last game (when I was crushed - report still forthcoming) we didn't use any but the WOI (can be done for free if a hero has at least one might) one. A lot of the time, I don't play with houserules either. The guy who plays Elves in our group however, he is keen on using them!

My personal theory is that even if they do fix some things in an upcoming book, they'll break others.

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yes. but no rule book will be perfect. as long as they keep the new rulebook to a "fixture product" or problem solving product( for the game that is, not our lives lol) instead of a new line of product or expansion to wotr. then it should be fine. Once they introduced new things then people play the games and find crazy combos and broken rules.

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I have my issues with GW but in the end, secretly, I am a GW fanatic.

I just had a mad idea to fix RoR without making them Knights of Minas Rohan. Make a rule about their superior horses, which gives them +1 on dice rolls against infantry (even when not charging, but not against cavalry/monsters (and maybe pikes). It makes them different from KOMT and the like, represents their function in the books/movies better then the current situation and makes them useful even to a not so experienced player.

As a fluff explanation you could say that the Rohirrim horses have been trained and bred for combat against infantry, and so can assist their riders (this has a historical precedent, Medieval knights would train their warhorses to bite and kick when in combat)

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

Hi Telchar, while I'm not so sure about these 'Knights of Minas Rohan' claims - they are capable of achieving more than those Knights and cost more - more like less armoured and less courageous Rohan Royal Knights who have a bow - a number of troops in this game have the lances rule, even some relatively light ones.

But the idea itself seems quite interesting. I don't think it just needs to be the horses either (though I bet they help) since they have throwing weapons, life in the saddle, the trust to get their horses to not shy at a wall of shields, the fear an infantryman would have against horses right next to him etc. And it makes them a little better than lances do, while also boosting the 35pt Knights a little. They can just shoot at monsters and cav, which they should. So it's much better than my idea in mechanical terms. I'll put it in when I revise it.

Cheers

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I would give all the Rohirrim +1 on the roll for an Earthshaking Charge, or maybe just auto pass that roll against infantry. I like the rule for it, but a 1/6 chance of it happening are too slim to make it really effective. I loved the scene in RotK (and TTT for that matter) where the Rohirrim cut through the legions of the Enemy like a hot knife through butter, and that isn't really represented in the game (except Theoden's Guard).

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.