Gothmog, Orc or Not?

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:21 pm

I know this is old, but whatever. I don't think Gothmog would be a wraith as FL pointed out 2 posts ago, but also, consider that there were other (major) battles going on at the time. Khamul, the number 2 wraith, was busy trying to destroy Lothlorien, while a large army was attacking Erebor (likely led by another Nazgul). I would make a lot of sense if Gothmog was a man like the Mouth. The Nazgul were used as messengers, overall commanders and causers of fear among the enemy, not battlefield commanders who led from behind. The Mouth, however, treated with the Army of the West and might have gone to Erebor to offer a Ring to Dain. Another BK could have quite easily been the commander for several of Sauron's other armies, with the Mouth being the chief among them. I would have to say that he most likely is a BK.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:06 pm

Yes, that seems to be the general concencus.

Oh and, I'm glad how long this thread has survived

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

The only we can do is to assume because it is another one of the many mysteries of Tolkien's universe :-D

Telchar · **Posted:** Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:25 pm

I agree with what has been said above. The chance that an Orc would be obeyed by Men (i.e. all the Easterlings, Haradrim, Corsairs, etc.) is nihil, even if Sauron would entrust such a treacherous creature (a point Tolkien consistently makes) with authority over his greatest army, his chief weapon, seems unlikely to me.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:31 pm

I just remembered, in RotK, Sam gets a column of orcs to fight a column of men without any trouble. that would be increased 10,000 fold at Minas Tirith.

Amarthadan · **Posted:** Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:51 pm

Yes, I too think the chance that Gothmog is an orc is very, very small. However, since we are given no more information other than one sentence, I quite like the movie version. PJ said (as has been stated in this thread) that they realy felt they needed a leader that was constantly present in the army, while the witch-king cared more about killing Gandalf and other major characters.

Tolkien very rarely mentions orcs of great importance, but it's quite easy to draw some sort of parallel between Gothmog and Azog or Bolg or even Golfimbul. I for one am just glad they decided to at least use the right name instead of inventing a new leader.

Telchar · **Posted:** Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:58 pm

But Golfimbul, Azog and Bolg commanded their own kingdoms, without anything else then orcs (so none who'd resent being commanded by an orc) and being the highest authority (so none to be disloyal to).

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:03 am

Telchar wrote:

But Golfimbul, Azog and Bolg commanded their own kingdoms,

Not for very long they didn't whereas Gothmog may have been lieutennant for a 1000 years.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:03 am

Also, those were during the period of time where Sauron didn't have an active hand in the affairs of Middle-Earth. They just were the strongest orc, so they took command of a large number of other orcs, whereas Gothmog was place in charge (after the WK) of the combined army of Mordor.

Telchar · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:15 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Yes but why would a human be named after the lord of the Balrogs?

Why are nearly all the Ruling Stewards of Gondor named after famous Edain? Why dit Louis Bonaparte style himself Napoleon III when crowned emperor? Naming yourself after past heroes brings the suggestion that you are as great as the person you're named after.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:50 pm

Telchar wrote:

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Yes but why would a human be named after the lord of the Balrogs?

Why are nearly all the Ruling Stewards of Gondor named after famous Edain? Why dit Louis Bonaparte style himself Napoleon III when crowned emperor? Naming yourself after past heroes brings the suggestion that you are as great as the person you're named after.

my point was that an Orc would name themselves after a balrog, but a human wouldn't, but my position was somewhat altered

Syrath101 · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:41 pm **Posts:** 36

I'm quite sure that Gothmog was a Spirit or Black Numenorean, and while I did like the Orc version of Gothmog in ROTK, I'm quite sure they didn't want to confuse the viewers by making him human or wraith like and like Lurtz made him another run of the mill warrior. I doubt Gothmog is a Ringwraith, though he could be a Sprirt/Chattle.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:16 pm

Certainly not a Spirit, unless you mean a Ringwraith, this is LotR not Warhammer, you don't get lots of different random spirits in lotr, and Gothmog is certainly not a Barrrow-wight, Dead Man of Dunharrow or Dead Marsh Spirit.

Syrath101 · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:41 pm **Posts:** 36

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Certainly not a Spirit, unless you mean a Ringwraith, this is LotR not Warhammer, you don't get lots of different random spirits in lotr, and Gothmog is certainly not a Barrrow-wight, Dead Man of Dunharrow or Dead Marsh Spirit.

I'm not a fan of the spirirt idea but if he were he'd possibly be a wraith like one, though personally it's somewhat obvious that Gothmog isn't an Orc ( Half troll or advanced breed of Uruk Hai maybe) but probably a Black Numenorean.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:07 am

I am not going to argue with you because I believe you to be correct about the Black Numeborean part just forget all Warhammerish ideas thats all.

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

Gothmog=Ringwraith Just kill me already

I prefer him to be a man rather than a spirit

Galanur · **Joined:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am **Posts:** 1389

Anyway dont forget that gothmog was a lieutenant after all, both in book and movie cause he obey´s to the to witch king, and him who bind´s fear into the mordor host doing everything he wants to

Every 1 knows that mordor key factor is fear, showned to his followers and certaintly dread to its enemies

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:08 pm

Aye, but I believe this has been alraedy said, in fact I believe there isn't much anyone can bring anything new in that way, only state what they think Gothmog could be and why.

PS And please do not defile the awesomeness that is Gothmog with the dreaded 'text-speak', it is awful.

Telchar · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:43 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Aye, but I believe this has been alraedy said, in fact I believe there isn't much anyone can bring anything new in that way, only state what they think Gothmog could be and why.

PS And please do not defile the awesomeness that is Gothmog with the dreaded 'text-speak', it is awful.

WTH is text-speak?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:47 pm

Galanur wrote:

Every 1

That is text speak

Quote:

cause he obey´s to

And so is that

Quote:

WTH

And to an extent, if you meant WTF so is that, but you are not defiling Gothmog anyway, so its ok.

Gothmog, Orc or Not?

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