That is a bugger, but you can fid the old sets cheap elewhere, and any new relases will have never been n plastic and would cost less than original price. I'm not saying anything good about GW though at this moment in time, which is a pity because my local store are so friendly, nice and understanding.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I'm like Lord Hurin...I spend a set amount of money on a monthly basis. Sure, I get fewer miniatures for the same amount of money as I used to spend, but I never could paint fast enough to keep up anyway. I also judge the value of my time/money by the enjoyment I get out of painting/collecting/playing rather than looking at it from a purely economic standpoint.

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Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

Whilst I support the idea that if any companies products you used to buy become not good value for money that you stop buying them I also think its important to maintain a sense of perspective. GW appears to have a particular business model based upon attracting new (young) gamers and selling them things and therefore provide extremely good support to this group of customers (in the form of enthusiasm, advice, a venue to play, making it easy for parents to buy things, etc). That you apparently (although as I dont know you personally I admit to speculating here) no longer fit this desired customer profile is not GWs fault. If they chose to put you off then they (for example) might refuse to serve you in stores.

My point is GW offer a product which is what it is, if you like it then buy it, if you dont dont, that is how the market works. GW's role is essentially to make a profit and I doubt any of us actually possess enough knowledge of the market to say their business model is wrong from that point of view no matter how many bitter sounding posts get made on the internet.

Speaking personally I havent bought any finecast and get most of my GW stuff from EBay these days, I also use figures from other manufacturers but then I play more GW systems than GW ones.

Im not a fan of plastic but i do buy plastic. It can be ok. But for the Hobbit, what would it be good for to buy some plastic core army and no heroes? I will not do that. If GW stays with the decision to sell finecrap, then they lost a customer. I will spend my money otherwise then.

I don't want to become personal but I miss any logic in your post. Why should finecrap attract young customers more then metall?

And what the hell you know about my knowledge of economy and business? A profit company shall max profits with long range perspective. They don't do that. Maybe I will go in more details why I'm of this opinion when I find the time. Of course it would be possible to attract many types of customers. Many companys do. That's how you max profits.

I never said finecast would attract young (or indeed any) customers more than metal and I am pretty sure thats not the point of the switch. There are presumably economic advantages to GW in using resin over metal. Younger customers eventually wont even know that metal figures existed and finecast will be the norm so they will accept it if they want the figures.

I am not sure what prompted your second comment based on the part of my post you quoted. I freely admit I dont know anything about what you know about economy, business or pretty much anything else either. I would be interested to hear what you have to say in more detail about this. I would be further interested in hearing how you account for the existence of GW as a company for 37ish years now if they are not a profit making company.

Well it's not about if it entertains you or not, it's a true fact. GW has been a running buissness for many years and they will get the same reaction from price rises all the time, but they still get money so they will continue to do so. I don't see why people are so angry when they are so many other alternatives out there concerning price.

You didn't get my point obviously. Same for Caputo.

Sure, the material is cheaper. But that's short term thinking. They will see what it was worth for sure.

And yes, I'm [word deleted] thats true. Reason is easy, they have the license and waste it.

I think everyone has their breaking point with the "GW Hobby," and it seems to me that a lot of people are so vehemently upset due to the fact that they haven't quite reached their breaking point, and so feel compelled to continue on, and yet are disgusted with steps being made by Games Workshop. I don't think the issues are as black and white as people are making them, ie, "GW hates us all," and I think there's evidence to show that. For example, Games Workshop has fantastic customer service--and they always own up to their miscasts, lack of bases in a set, and things of that nature. Additionally, if you haven't noticed, GW has been proudly displaying gamers' miniatures in their blog for a while now, something they are encouraging openly. They don't HATE their customers, whether they're loyal or new. They don't laugh when they sell people mediocre Finecast models--they replace them, for goodness sake. It seems to me that Games Workshop is currently in a scramble period. What can they do to survive with profits right now? What can they produce that people will buy? How can they maintain our phrase "Games Workshop makes the best toy soldiers in the world" when so many other competitors are catching up to them? We've seen the answers to some of these questions in the form of price rises, unsubstantiated games such as War of the Ring, and a thus-far fiasco that is Finecast. Good Finecast models are among some of the best miniatures that have ever been produced. The problem is, they rushed it out, presumably in the hopes that it would be ready in time for the 25th Anniversary of 40K and the upcoming Hobbit films. You'll notice they also had to make sure they were the ones setting the metal-to-resin trend: see Privateer Press and Black Scorpion Miniatures, and expect others to follow. Losing customer loyalty doesn't seem to be part of their plan, it seems to be an unfortunate side effect of the measures they felt were necessary to keep them afloat. They understand and accept that by now in my opinion, but they wouldn't have such a large and expanded range for their games if they didn't believe that supporting the customers armies was important. March releases will include Space Wolf and Tyranid figures that fans have been waiting for for a long time. They didn't really even ever have to release those figures at this point, but fans really wanted them. Regarding disrespect for LotR canon, I think that, for the most part, just isn't true! They have limited room to create their own canon, and when they do, I do honestly believe they try to create something they believe fits. You might not agree with them, but they probably know just as well as you do that some things just wouldn't fit on the tabletop together. Additionally, at the same time--and this is a bit contradictory to my previous statement, actually--Games Workshop has a lot of trouble trying to get 40K and WHFB players to not look down at LotR. Some of them HATE LotR, but I remember reading on Beasts of War some of the comments about the latest LotR release, and some 40K players like the look of the Watcher and Dweller models and were even considering purchasing them for 40K. GW understands the need for a broader appeal in their LotR range--to LotR fans, historical gamers, and their own GW fanboys.

Now, there are two more things I would like to mention: no.1, if you're going to use historical figures as proxies for GW miniatures, you might want to consider actually just playing historical battles instead of battles in Middle-earth. Guys, I adore LotR, but nothing beats real history. The SBG rules and WotR rules can easily be adapted to the Middle Ages. If you're fed up with GW, and don't have a lot of cash to spare, just adapt the rules you own to a completely new range of miniatures and get on the road to being done with GW. Secondly, there have been numerous claims in this thread that Games Workshop is the only one with the license to make Lord of the Rings miniatures. While this is true in the sense that Games Workshop is the only one making full-out ranges for armies featured in the films, please don't just ignore Mithril Miniatures and Wizkids. Mithril Miniatures has been producing metal miniatures based only on the books since the late 80s, and would be especially appealing to those who are disgusted with "GW's anti-Tolkien policies." Wizkids produces pre-painted plastic miniatures for their Lord of the Rings Heroclix range. Maybe they don't count, as their ranges aren't liable to support the army building you're looking for, but the statement that Games Workshop is the only company with the license to produce LotR miniatures is fallacious.

Mithril Miniatures: http://www.mithril.ie/
Wizkids LotR Heroclix: http://heroclix.com/category/heroclix/l ... z1nVcRNHIL

Wow Jamros, that post is unreasonably reasonable for this thread!

Please actually do ignore wizkids and their prepainted soft plastic atrocities

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Talaan-u rûk-ir tor Urûk
Nauru-ir agh kragoru nûrsu grishûrz
Nork-ulu furtun agh goð
Mordor-ob bot-tuk

I was merely citing Wizkids as an example of another company with a license to produce miniatures based on Lord of the Rings, not explicitly suggesting that Wizkids miniatures be used as an alternative to Games Workshop. A lot of people were making the claim that only Games Workshop produced LotR figures, and whether they are even viable alternatives or not, I felt like Mithril and Wizkids deserved some recognition. But you know, the poses often aren't bad at all, and the models can be very easily re-painted. I once purchased some Wizkids Haloclix miniatures just to re-paint them actually.

Really? This is the second time you're asking why people are so angry on this thread? Have you been reading the countless number of posts by different posters on here making their points and explaining why they are fed up at being a GW customer? Alternatives are nice and all, but not for a collector's view point such as myself. I want the minis based off of the films, that means I'll strictly collect the GW range, where as alternatives will just botch up the collection unless all I care about is the gaming aspect.

As it concerns for price increases Sticky. It's different this time around than way before. The price has jumped up exponentially this past year. I don't believe GW will continue going on good in profits in the next five years as compared to their records for the five previous years. Let's wait until metal products are completely exhausted from stocks to get a better assessment of GW's sales purely based on their Finecast models and their lower in quantity plastic kits. Right now I'll bet that a lot of GW's sales the past year have been their metal products since it's going out and people like myself want to top off their collection.

When it comes to the argument that GW is a "Profit Company", I see that term as not constructive for GW as a business if it's true, if all they view their customers as is $$$ symbols. There's no better way to deteriorate the vender/client relationship. Not that I'm saying that a business is not about making a buck, but generally you shouldn't also p-off your clientel or see them as easily replaceable especially when your business is a hobby that isn't general common practice in households.

And finally I'm tired of reading posts of people who are tired of reading other people's posts on being tired of GW's antics. I guess this should mean I should be tired of myself then; crying about people who are crying about people who are crying about GW. Listen this is a discussion board, it concerns the hobby, if you wish to state your own opposing view and defend or bash GW, go right ahead I'll enjoy reading the different arguments. But don't come on here mocking people's opinions labeling them as cry babies and that you can't stand reading these GW rants and bashings anymore. Because then why are you reading them in the first place and then write a response to it? Seriously, once you understand that a post/topic is a rant and that it bothers you; get the hell out or skip and scroll down to the next post! Don't write a response to it that basically states that a person doesn't have the right to his own opinion or no right to protest something he thinks to be wrong.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

I am coming to understand that people who have been loyal to GW and are collectors could feel real frustrated. I think I'm very flexible (i don't mean that in a patronising way) in the sense that I don't really care for profiles that I dont like and simply ignore them. But people who are very strict in what they want their armies to be I can understand. Although I won't ever fully agree with them because I still believe this is a hobby and the point of it is so you can enjoy it. I don't really see a reason why people should get so angry over a hobby, as if I won't enjoy it then theres not much point. It's like when playing a game and coming to conflict with the rules, I would much rather just roll for the error than argue about, otherwise it wont be fun, and what's the point of gaming if it is not fun?

The point is that its fast becoming unaffordable. And unaffordable hobbies can hardly be fun, can they?

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My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/

Couple of quick points. Unaffordable hobbies attract no new blood, so the number of new opponents with interesting ideas and tactics dries up, and existing opponents drift away and are lost. Net result is a poorer gaming experience overall (unless one solo games). Coupled with the closing of gaming space in their stores, GW seem to be going for the luxury market rather than the masses - for the UK membership that's more Marks and Spencer than Lidl...

While no longer 'official' (in that GW took over the licence) Black Tree Design (ex-harlequin) do a Legions Of The Realm range with 'Men of the East' and 'Northern Ranger' eumphemisms for their figures. They aren't bad, although perhaps more Warhammeresque than SBG/WOTR in style.

@Sticky, King Ondoher and Typhoon pretty much nailed it. We're not angry at the hobby or lost interest in the hobby itself except when the quality of Finecast sucks. We're upset that the company that makes the products are basically forcing us out of the hobby. Now I know that people on here that are defending GW are saying; "GW is not forcing you to do anything, purchasing is voluntary on your part, they can price their products in any which way that they like. If you don't like it, get out." Well that is all true except GW is pricing us out.

If you're finacially set, then you have no worries and you couldn't care less what GW does price wise. You have a serious problem if you're not financially set and that you're feeding your hobby addiction by dipping into your child's college education fund that you have saved up. It's like what I've been saying all along and what Typhoon has just stated, this GW hobby is more and more becoming exclusively for the rich. If you're strictly a gamer that relies upon playing a local community and not between friends, this is very bad. You may well be building up an army for nothing if the majority of people are leaving the hobby in your area.

To outsiders these miniatures that we collect are just little toys, which is true since we game with them. And they're fast becoming expesive little toys, if they weren't already expensive to begin with. I could justify the pricing a few years ago when the models are metal. I can't justify it for plastic army men and resin. And it's laughable how they can call their resin models Finecast when they are full of such huge amounts of errors. And people will say, "well it's not like metal was perfect also", yeah well metal never pretended to be Finecast with being charged at a premium price.

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My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

And what is worse, even if you can afford the prices (and are willing to pay them) you face finecast... The funny thing which is not funny is that they combined both things. And thats where I start to overreact.

A couple points:

1) It is obviously possible to charge too little for a product, but it is also possible to charge too much. You can make less money in total if the price increase drives away too many people to justify the increased profits from the remaining smaller customer base. Knowing which side of the ideal line you're on is very very hard work, and unless someone has access to GW's bookkeeping none of us are qualified to know that GW is making a good business decision by raising prices. Maybe they're driving too many people away, maybe they're leaving money on the table. Experts with all the data have a very hard time knowing, laymen with no data are pretty hopeless. "GW is a business, of course it should raise prices" is a silly argument. It might make them money, it might cost them money, we don't know. All we know are the people with the data and the training think it's a good plan, but they may easily be wrong. Getting it right is very very hard.

2) Tin, the primary component of the "white metal" GW uses, has increased in price about 400% over the last ten years.* That's a lot, and that's going to scare the pants off anyone who's business is selling cunningly shaped lumps of tin. Resin has problems, but it is way more attractive to GW than skyrocketing tin prices. If customers reject finecast, GW will have to bite the bullet and return to metal with increases in price to match rising tin costs. Anyone remember New Coke? Companies can try a big initiative, see it flop, and go back to the old way. It costs a ton of money and is embarrassing as hell, but sometimes you have to do it. Personally, I won't buy finecast by mail. I want to see the packet and see the model before I pay for it because it's brittle and it has a high miscast rate. If GW can fix that, great. If they can't then they're going to have trouble convincing people to buy it if it is screwed up too often. As it is, I'm comfortable buying metal models and really leery about finecast. I've bought almost no finecast. If there are too many people like me, GW will have to face the music and switch back.

Reshaping it with heat isn't an issue to me, I put together a metal Shelob this weekend and it was hours of sanding and filing to remove mold lines, gap filling with green stuff, bending legs into position, and generally fighting the thing into shape. Cleaning and assembling models is a time consuming process if you want to do it right be they plastic, metal, or resin.

3) One point I feel should be mentioned more often when these dead horse threads come along is people's backlogs. I've got hundreds of unpainted models, so does almost every gamer I know. That suggests to me that models can't really be way too expensive, or I wouldn't be buying hundreds more of them than I can possibly paint or play with. If I'm buying way more of a thing than I need or can even use, I'm probably a long way from being priced out of the market.

* http://www.itri.co.uk/index.php?option= ... 5&cf_id=24