Draugluin, I'm talking about over the base statline put forward earlier...

I know they don't have throwing weapons...that why I didn't factor it into the cost. And thats why they have a +2 to Fight, I'm not talking about their previous profiles...

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Sun is by sea-men always hoped for,
when they fare away over the fishes' bath,
until the brine-stallion they bring to land.
OERP

Ask BlackMist the tournement player, he said Reavers are very good.

And Draugluin is right about Elves and Dwarves.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Oh, over the Haradrim base profile, I thought you were comparing it to the corsair base profile.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

What makes Elves really good is their shooting. They have as good a chance to kill an enemy at range as they do in combat, without the risk. Elves can lurk in a wood the entire game and still move their 3" and shoot, without much risk of being shot back.

A Morannon Orc has twice the odds of killing an Elf than the Elf does him. He "should" cost 4 points less than the Elf, as well? They're easily enough outnumbered now. Really, fight value 5 isn't great if you're only rolling 1 dice for their 2.

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Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts

So, yes, Reavers are devastating, my wood elves laugh, stick one with a throwing dagger, and realize that another 20 just showed up, and stop laughing. Then the fight begins.

And yes, imo, the Mumak really isn't that great, unless, of course, you are using an army that can't deal with it- and I have been stuck in that situation before. Not fun at all.

@BlackMist- Now, please do correct me if I'm wrong, but a barrier works if it goes up to the model's waist- is that not the same with a shooting obstacle? And you have piqued my curiosity- when I return to my rulebook I shall scour it indeed for the answer to my puzzlement.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

The dwarves has a lack of movement that makes them almost not competitive. It very difficult to charge you first so the throwing weapons are less effective (and more interesting because they reach what you can't reach). Besides that, they don't have spears or cavarly and with the new system most of the sceneries make difficult to reorganize your army with any allied race. This is just my opinion. Anyway, more dies gives you more opportunities to win a fight and with F5 and 2 attacks they are awesome. Now there isn't as much bowfire than before (except in two sceneries) so they could the great troops and for me a little overpowered.

Thanks for listening

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"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost."

I think that they are so many variables that it is so difficult to find a universal agreed point.

So I shall correct you, as you are wrong. Barriers have different rules than In The Way. Even if a foot of a Balrog is blocked by a Goblin, the goblin will count as In The Way. Of course you have to take it from the perspective of the shooter, so often if the shooter is on higher ground then the Goblin won't physically block it. You just look from the eyes to the target, if there is even a branch on the way, then there's an ITW.


And yet Moria with the same movement is one of the most competitive armies in the game. The things that make Dwarves overall weak is the lack of spears, numbers and useful heroes. Face it, Gimli and Balin are just not good enough and Dwarves don't have a Beregond that could make them a cheap ally to a powerful hero like Saruman, they unfortunately have to take at least a 60pt captain to get any decent heroes, making extra cuts to their numbers.


The reality is that you're almost never rolling 1 dice, but rather always 2v2. The Elf is more expensive, but with the model limit at 75 for 700pts the Elves get easily to over 60, while the 60 something of Orcs will always get extra big models like wraiths or spider queen, so there is almost no difference in numbers. (I'm speaking based on the LoME experience though). The real strength of Elves is not the shooting, but the numbers combined with F5.


Again, as I said before Dwarves are not overpowered at all. There hasn't been a single full Dwarf list in the top 10 of a GT in the past several years. There have been many Elf, Gondor and even Rohan armies in top 10, but as far as my memory goes (and it goes to 2009 singles) I haven't seen a single pure dwarf list on top tables. The only ones I have seen were a combo of 30 dwarves / 30 elves + Legolas & dwarf captain and a combo of 20 Khazad, Grey Company and Saruman (the first getting 3rd place in 2010 and the latter getting a 2nd place in 2009).

Elves are strong, but mainly only in the wood elf form because of their numbers. High Elves waste extra points on D6, don't have spearmen that can shield without shields and lack throwing daggers.


That's very much relative. A boost in Strength between 3 and 4 is worth more than a boost in Fight of 3 to 4. However, a boost of Fight from 4 to 5 is far better than a strength boost from 3 to 4. This is due to the potential opponents you face. If playing Good vs Evil, the most popular Strength in evil armies is 4, therefore most competitive good forces will aim to have D3, 5 or 7, making S4 useless. At the same time those forces will have F4 (most good elites) or F5 (elves), effectively making it more worthwhile to get a Fight boost to 5. A fight boost of 2 to 3 is completely worthless, and as such for example a Blackshield becomes better than Morannon because he saves on a useless fight difference, while still keeping S4 like the Morannon and saves 1 point in cost.

Hence you can never define exactly what the point of a statistic should be, because it is relative to the opposition. It is however finely balanced against all possible opponents.

Once you get to high level of play and understanding of the game, many more things will make sense. There are some units that are more useful than others, but a lot of it depends on the meta of your opponents. If your playing field includes 5 moria players and 1 isengard and you have a choice of using a 60 model F3/D6 gondor force and a 50 model F5/D6 elf force, with no other differences within, then if you want to beat the field, it is better to use the Gondor force. Therefore, a lot of tournament playing is based upon knowing your opponents. Elf armies are not overpowered because everybody knows a lot of good players use them, and hence the other good players try to counter them. This year was flooded with Harads because Harad are the best counter to elves, at the same time Gondor is probably the best counter to Harad, hence why my good force was a heavy gondor army. The strength of every army is relative to the playing field.

LotR is one of those things which take a minute to learn and a lifetime to master. Hence my message here is don't think that something is overpowered because you can't beat it, or because it seems to be unbeatable, or because it looks on paper that it has extreme stats. Analyse it and learn to beat it. It took me 5 years to win my first GT, even though my results before that were in the pool of 7th, 20th, 4th and 18th. There's a lot of truth in the saying that a defeat teaches more than a victory.


It is almost impossible. And certainly 1 point per stat increase is nowhere near good enough.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

You must not have ever fought dwarves before, because their lack of movement is more than made up for in their cheap price, especially in the new system. Starting off that close means that it'll only take 1 turn to get int battle, where their high fight and insane defence make them amazing.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Having played the game for almost 8 years, won 2 GTs, had a podium in other 4, I think I've played enough of dwarves (and other armies) in my life to say from experience that Dwarves are... not that great.

It's not their movement that I'm bothered by. Goblins are great and still have 5".

It's the lack of useful heroes, lack of magic, lack of spears, lack of decent bowfire.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

@BlackMist, Blakshields went up by a point, they now cost the same as Morannon Orcs.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Ah, forgot about that. That's a change for good

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Thank you, BlackMist. Being an archer myself, I now have something new to gripe about in the shooting rules. But also something new to antagonize opponents with. Such is life.

Though the dwarves have some excellent models, they are not overpowered- the lack of spearmen is, ultimately, their downfall. Backed by lack of magic in themselves.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

Great post!

That's appropriate, they have a nasty special rule.

Great post Blackmist! And I agree regarding Dwarves and their uses. Having been a Dwarf player in a number of instore campaigns/competitions and also at Wakefield Doubles it is apparent just how difficult it is to achieve objectives using these guys! In a pitched battle they have the odds but the remaining scenarios are really stacked against them. While you can rely on Dwarves to keep a formation longer than most other units (because of their high Defence and decent Fight value) they are poor at manoeuvring, have no secondary attack (from spear support) and their Heroes are rather similar. There are ways around their secondary attack problem, either using Vault Wardens or perhaps the 2 attack Iron Guard but I always found their movement a problem. At least with LOME you could take 1 hero and a load of warriors, now the numbers game is no longer an option. Elite dwarves are the only way forward and even then they are on the backfoot from the start.

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The Southern Fiefdoms: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21928

In my experience, Dwarves are a very good and effective beginner's army. They are very forgiving, due to their high defence, and, because they lack spears and cavalry, they do not require complicated tactics. Dwarven strategy primarily consists of "slug it out with the enemy and grind them down until you win". Dwarves are very good at this, but better players will be able to avoid a pitched battle, and skirmish instead. If that happens, the Dwarves will most likely be defeated. So, like I said, they're a very good army for beginners, but they need foreign support to be competitive.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

It's so nice to have your elves slowly moving back into the forest, while those dwarves almost all get killed before they even reach you,so nice I tell you.

In my gaming culture, most peopletry to get as many units as possible, wich is a chance for my elves(galadhrim and wood elves) to stand out and win much battles.While the enemy shieldwalls push forwards, I sit back in my forest killing half armies before there is on other option than fight. And then, I have some filthy tricks

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Ours is the fury!

Oh yes, the elves are most tricksy. And dwarves and goblins can have issues with actually reaching them when they hide in the woods.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

Considering that the new sourcebook scenarios have almost all of the formations starting pretty close together, their lack of movement isn't a factor at all. If you bring in the KC, you get 2 banners for cheap, which gives you rerolls. Their high defence + rerolls from him means they rarely lose and take forever to kill. One of my opponents only plays dwarves and usually wins, even if I use uruk-hai, goblins or evil men.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.