Thoughts on the updated rules in Hobbit SBG.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:34 pm

How I'm most likely gonna be playing with my friends is to leave out the changes to archery while including all the other changes. The -1 and no volley are the ONLY things I don't like about the new rules (that I've noticed), and I really like the monster rules and kinda like the new wargear rules.

Telchar · **Posted:** Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:54 pm

Fëanor, the mighty elf wrote:

Anyway, let's stay on topic.
I guess like some of the changes in the new rules, and I hate some too. But what is more important is how they can just change a lot of rules and not modify any points values. Surely the Grey Company isn't as strong as it was before! And this happens while all Monsters get a major boost (though not going up in points). How will this not effect balance? :roll:

It will, of course. For the better. The Grey Company was still a bit overpowered IMO, and monsters were most definately underpowered.

Fëanor, the mighty elf · **Posted:** Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:15 pm

Okay, that's right. But what about others? What about Rohan and Easterlings for example?
I understand it would've been a huge effort (unrealistic effort?) to do so, but I really think they should have re-calculated all points values again. I can't believe they have play tested everything and came to the conclusion that the points were still right.

whafrog · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:19 am

Anybody else think that Orc Hunters are way underpriced or overpowered? Except for knockdown and movement, they're better on foot. So they could ride into battle, then dismount and lose no capability, while possibly get an extra model on the field.

Pindergorn · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:56 am

whafrog wrote:

Anybody else think that Orc Hunters are way underpriced or overpowered? Except for knockdown and movement, they're better on foot. So they could ride into battle, then dismount and lose no capability, while possibly get an extra model on the field.

That would be a novel tactic...

Draugluin · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:00 am

That's actually a great idea. In fact, they actually fight better on foot, because of Many Blades.

tcrfelton · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:48 pm

I like the new rules. The new rules for monsters are sickening. I am trying to figure out in my head the best way to kill them now (other than archery), but I guess I'll just have to wait and play some games (and never put valuable models near enough to be Barged!).

I think I like the new magic. My ringwraiths are a little sad atm, but they will get over it. Especially since now I will almost certainly mount them on Fellbeasts when I field them, fwahaha!

The spear change is pretty nice. Finally I won't have to throw Mardin into the front line wagging his spear around like a doofus until I need to. Oh, and Cave Troll spears are less embarassing backing up Moria Goblins than they used to be when you couldn't get him into a spot to fight himself, lol.

Was Leaping in the old rules? I don't have my book with me, but I like Leaping.

My Isildur mounted with the Ring (stealth-bomber tactic) is more sickening now thanks to the new One Ring rules.

Getting rid of Volley Fire is going to make larger points match games work a bit differently now, excited for this.

Naming the roll a Duel Roll is awesome. Now we won't have to stumble with our words trying to describe what that roll should be called.

Fighting multiple opponents over a barrier is sickeningly good (I don't think it was the same in the old rules). I want to put Boromir behind a hedge with a spear behind him and just sit there taunting my enemies just for fun!

The new In The Way chart is pretty slick. Me likey.

Heroic March = Yay!

Special Strikes are going to slow the game down a bit until we all remember what they do.

That's about it with regards to my thoughts on the new rules from off the top of my head. If I think of more, I'll share.

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:29 pm

Quote:

The spear change is pretty nice. Finally I won't have to throw Mardin into the front line wagging his spear around like a doofus until I need to. Oh, and Cave Troll spears are less embarassing backing up Moria Goblins than they used to be when you couldn't get him into a spot to fight himself, lol.

You know mardin doesnt actually have a spear...check his profile. Torozul is just a 'hand' weapon regardless of what it looks like.

RyuAzai · **Joined:** Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:36 pm **Posts:** 51

New rules for monsters? Are they something like stomp from WHF?

commoner · **Joined:** Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:34 pm **Posts:** 21

Well I have yet to play them, so I can't say for sure how I 100% feel about them, but overall the game largely remains the same. I'd say the new rules only effect about 10% of the play.

My impression (again, just from reading it) is it is too little changes and the same problems that trouble the game still persist. There are a lot of rules that should have been altered in the game, yet they remain unchanged.

The barrier rules are the same as they have always been. There was no change done to them. Leap was not there before, but I know we had been house ruling a jump check that way for a long time when jumping gaps. I am glad to see they codified it.

I also do not think we'll see many of the weapon options being used all that often since every bonus comes with a steep price. The ability to re-roll 1's on wound rolls for a -d3 fight seems a bit harsh...as do the rest of them. I have no idea when you would willingly elect to knock someone down rather than kill them. I definitely think the different wargear could have been handled better than it was. This largely puts the wargear options only in the hands of the Heroes and monsters who can afford the adjustment. It seems to me this game is now largely focused on Heroes fighting Heroes and infantry don't seem to matter - in fact - props to deliver a hero or monster to the killing factory.

I also think some of the new might maneuvers have drastically changed the game and certain aspects will have to be addressed to make it more viable. Typically, it is very easy for evil to Out Might Good in a game. The ability to add 1d6 to their Fight vs. a good hero means they will have enough might points to increase their Fight way above the ranks of the Good hero. This means that they will win more fights and the Good Heroes will die more quickly. Now, the fact good heroes were almost indestructible before needed to change. However, their cost is so high that they have little forces to back them up. Good typically loses simply because they invested the points for one of these beasts which means all Evil has to do is stall them, and its over. I have seen just as many games of Balin being fed one goblin each round as I have seen Gondor feed a Mordor troll one infantry each round. Monsters now have essentially an unlimited amount of might to deal with this problem, while heroes do not! This is especially useful with evil since they do have a ridiculous amount of infantry to feed anyone most of the time.

With this way of raising fight, making it dependent on Might, means that Evil will have a larger glut of points to use to not only kill the good heroes faster; they will also be able to outmaneuver them more quickly.

I was happy to see the spear rules return to the first edition style. It is by far more effective than the latter changes.

I am also happy to see the changes to bow fire. It is by far better written this way.

I also honestly don't know what I missed, but the Ringwraiths do not seem like were weakened in anyway....I am not sure what I am missing there...is it from the FAQ's. I mean, Boromir can use his horn, but the Ringwraith will fail that next to never. Other models in a fight with the wraith and the transfixed person could always fight each other. Gandalf could blast away now, I suppose, but it's not a super huge deal.

To me...other than a few key rules, the biggest flaws of the strategy battle game are the same. Cavalry still seem far too weak for their points costs. I know Rohan can shooty doom now, but I am so tired of playing chase Rohan around the table with my Uruk Hai for an hour until I finally corner them and kill them all. It is boring and flat and I think I'd still rather have warriors on foot than take a rider any day of the weak. I get more of them, that means more throwing spears, more bows, more of everything really.

My thoughts is this will play a great Hobbit Game. I feel it was designed to do that above all else and has been tailored for using those heroes/warriors against those specific evil forces. Their points have been well calculated and balanced. The game will be a lot of fun to play.

As for LOTR, it is the same game, with the same issues. These do not really fix anything for it...in fact, may make things worse since points haven't been adjusted and the same issues plague that system.

Hopefully, when the Hobbit is done (and if it doesn't bomb - which it definitely might) they will readdress LOTR. But until then, I will continue enjoying the game as I have always done.

Happy Gaming,

Commoner

Draugluin · **Posted:** Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:45 pm

I'll bet that they'll re-address the entire game once all the movies have come out. By then, all the minis will be out, all the game changes will be thought out and they'll need some more money from us for rulebooks. I bet we'll see a big book just titled "Middle-Earth SBG" and then 1 somewhat smaller book that includes all the profiles from the Hobbit movies and 1 that includes all the profiles from the Lord of the Rings movies.

simmuskhan · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:21 am

commoner wrote:

I also do not think we'll see many of the weapon options being used all that often since every bonus comes with a steep price. The ability to re-roll 1's on wound rolls for a -d3 fight seems a bit harsh...as do the rest of them. I have no idea when you would willingly elect to knock someone down rather than kill them.

Really? My goblins will love this rule. They already have less fight, so why do they care if they have to drop their fight value further. Any time in any fight when you have less fight value than your opponent this is a rule worth using, or if your fight is substantially higher than your opponent you might as well use it too.

Knocking someone down gives you double strikes against them, so I can see this being really useful too. If someone has three people fighting against them, get one person to knock them down, then the others get double strikes. Not to mention next turn they have to stand back up plus it looks cool =) Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:55 am

Knockdown is especially good against anyone who has substantially higher defence than strength, particularily when you need better than a 6 to wound them (so pretty much dwarves).

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

Finally got to play with the new rules yesterday....and I like them.

We got 2 500 point games done in 4 hours, including set-up and pack away time, so the game wasn't noticably slower with the new weapon rules. I think in larger games with the increased number of monsters you're likely to see and with the special strikes killing stuff faster, the model count on the table will drop quickly as the game goes on, balancing out the time taken resolving special strikes.

'Feint' doesn't seem to have much effect. I don't think I rolled a '1' To Wound with any of my sword goblins.
'Penetrating Strike' is a bit of a double edged sword (dreadful joke intended). While it does make goblin prowlers with 2-handed axes really killy, it's not as funny when you lose and your defence drops to 1. My opponent really didn't fancy using it with his Dwarfs, he preferred to keep his higher defence values safe, especially as my Goblins were usually rolling more dice in the duels. Even the King's Champion didn't fancy using 'Penetrating Strikes' when faced with prowlers with 2-handed axes backed up by spearmen. A potential defence drop from 9 to 6 is a big risk.

Shooting is nerfed, but not useless if your archers are in good positions.

We didn't use any of the new Heroic Actions, but I can see a lot of potential for 'Heroic Strike'. A low level hero can call a heroic strike if he and a couple of warriors have trapped a high level hero or monster and win the fight with more attacks and a temporarily higher fight value. Cheap captains and lots of troops still have a place in SBG. The big heroes (and monsters) might, fate and luck always run out at some point.

Brutal Power Attacks Rock. They just Rock. My Cave Troll charged 2 Khazads, bashed both out of the way and attacked the banner bearer behind them (then lost miserably to the plucky Dwarf with a flag). It was very cinematic and exacly what a monster sould be able to do. Next game he got round the flank of a cavalry charge, beat one SKoDA in a fight and threw him into 5 of his mates, knocking them all over. That won't work ever again against that player though, but it was nice to get that move off once. Later in the game he gave Prince Imrahil a good dose of 'Rend'.
Monsters Rock.

I'm loving the new rules so far.

Amarthadan · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:40 am

As stated, the heroic strike is a good counterattack when your hero is surrounded by monsters etc. Happened in a game yesterday.

Zogash · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:12 pm

Damian wrote:

Next game he got round the flank of a cavalry charge, beat one SKoDA in a fight and threw him into 5 of his mates, knocking them all over. That won't work ever again against that player though, but it was nice to get that move off once.

I hate this part of the Hurl rule. It totally screws over (already comparably underpowered and overpriced) cav-heavy armies, especially since there's absolutely no way to resist it and losing their horses makes them worthless. Reducing the Hurl range when throwing a cavalry model and/or riders being thrown-off on a roll of 4-5+ only might balance it out a bit. I really hope this gets adressed in a future FAQ...

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

You counter it with better tactics, not bitching that the rule is broken.

The SKoDA on the charge with Imrahils re-rolls did horrible damage to my battle line with two charges, it was only the Troll that stopped the rot. Cavalry are much faster than a Troll, so if you see one lurking on the end of a battle line attack the other end and the Troll won't have the speed to catch up. As I said in my last post, that trick won't work on the same opponent twice. The guy I was playing is a smart player and it was only unfamiliarity with the new rules that allowed me to pull that trick off.

There's plenty of things that will neutralise a monster, particularly one that's only D6 with 3 wounds.

You know what else nerfs cavalry...... woods, and other areas of difficult ground. Would you like them FAQd too? Cavalry are fine in SBG, they're excellent at riding down isolated groups of models and scattered battle lines and that's exactly what they should be doing in a skirmish game, particularly one in which the writers suggest 33 to 50% terrain coverage. (That's a lot of ruins, wood and difficult ground). Cav heavy armies don't work well not because the rules are wrong, but because they need foot support to be effective in anything other than an open field, and that's exactly how it should be.

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

Re-reading the rules closely I can see nothing that says a rider is thrown if a cavalry model is knocked prone. All is says in the cavalry section is that they can't climb, crawl or lie down.
It also says that if you fail a leap test you have to roll a dice and on a roll of '1' you are thrown. The rules for failing a leap test say that you fall and suffer falling damage, which includes being placed prone.
So if your cavalry model leaps and fails it is placed prone but then has to take a further test so see if the rider is thrown. You're not automatically thrown.
Hurl and Sorcerous Blast do not mention riders being thrown if cavalry is knocked over, but the rules for monstrous cavalry vs normal cavalry do specifically mention it.

I don't think knocking a cavalry model prone automatically throws the rider.

In other news; Banner bearers can carry other equipment now and use shields. There is no restriction in the rules for banners or shields.

kidterminal · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:46 pm

Sounds good.

Thoughts on the updated rules in Hobbit SBG.

Who is online