Really, you don't feel it's one of those stereotypes linked to our nation? What about that Olympic opening ceremony where one of the main centre-pieces was a huge inflatable Voldemort?



I agree with everything you've said, maybe it's just me but i am aware of alot of people who treat HP as some near biblical text. What you said about the themes of Harry Potter being "growing up, love, political intrigues and a "shadow war" against the dark side, where no-one acknowledges the dangers until it's too late." is spot on. As i have already said, my real problem is that HP has achieved an awful lot, while seemingly borrowing an equally awful lot from other books.

P.S: Sorry for being coarse and mean, i wasn't trying to do that at all. I enjoyed hp as a kid, but as soon as it became a darker 'more adult' series i went off it instantly and started to side more towards lotr as if i hadn't already.

P.P.S: The HP films had David Tennant in them :/

Tolkien borrowed many of his themes and devices from older tales as well. Read through the Ring Cycle (or at least read the wikipedia entry ) and you will find many. To shine a light on a very blatant "rip off" look at the dwarf names from the Hobbit. They all come from the Edda, a collection of Norse poetry. In fact, Gandalf was originally a dwarf name as well so it's not exactly 'original'.

Tolkien borrowed from what came before him but made a whole that was greater than the sum of the parts. I'm not saying 'greater than the source', but rather greater than the value of the individual elements borrowed. The creators of D&D (and most other fantasy-genre games) borrowed heavily from Tolkien but also from many other sources. JKR borrowed from Tolkien. She also borrowed from many, many other literary sources from ancient mythology to modern 20th Century writers. I find her stories enjoyable but hardly at the same level of depth as Tolkien. But until PJ's movies a decade ago Tolkien's work was really enjoyed by a limited segment of the population. JKR's stories penetrated a huge market. Personally I find 'market share' to be a very bad example of 'quality' though (I'll withhold my personal opinion on most of drivel on cable). Comparing her stories with Tolkien's is like comparing a dinner at a fine restaurant to a similar meal from a chain place. Mostly the same ingredients and each can be enjoyed but they cannot really be compared side by side.

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I do think alot of things has been compiled and borrowed from mythology and from other authors. There realy is no more imagination as its all been done before. To be honest its a massive argument and i dont particulary like any harry potter movies/books or the silly author.

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You would of had me crawling on all fours like a BEAST!

At the end of the day, Tolkien's world was the original fantasy!! Original and best! But, because it's so old, this generation relates much more to Harry Potter. Except me. I don't like Rowling. But I like Hermione.

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Tolkien copied much from myths and folklore so you can't really say it's original. Mankind has been copying things down for a long time...

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Myths are myths though, not fantasy literature. He compiled ancient folklore into one cohesive universe from which he created many timeless tales. To me, that isn't copying.

Indeed- that is, to agree with the piece immediately above me.

I am not a fan of Potter (was, but am no longer) and have had this discussion (in all its variants) with my college roomate, who is a valiant Potter supporter- probably some of the liveliest discussions we've ever had.

Does Rowling copy Tolkien? At the very least she borrows some elements- but then, so do all major fantasy writers these days, after all, "There is nothing new under the sun."

Yes, Tolkien did borrow from all manner of mythology and language- dwarven runes are Old English, his Elvish is based heavily on Latin, Norse mythology featured heavily, and the books are riddled with Christian theology- none of which is a bad thing, and ultimately, in my opinion, add to the fullness and richness of Tolkien's works.

Which is why I too am distressed when I find that more of my generation have read/ watched/ breathed HP than know that Tolkien exists (yes, actually- I have met people who have read HP without seeing LotR...). And I would not be surprised to find the world, at some point in the near future, heralding HP as the next generation of 'remarkable fictional literature' to have ever been written, and, give Rowling a hundred years or so, being taught as a classic. No, this doesn't please me, because while her stories are engaging, her writing style and the ultimate summation of her stories are far inferior to that of Tolkien.

Be that as it may, at least they are better than Twilight.

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"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”

In AGoT (techically the book series is A Song of Ice and Fire. AGoT is Book 1 / the TV series) there are of course the "Others" (known as White Walkers in the TV show). For all we know they could have some evil Overlord that rules over them.

OR *SPOILER ALERT*

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That's cool, what you just described sounds NOTHING like Sauron. While it IS the description of a dark lord, it isn't a once powerful spiritless being who regains physical form, and becomes fixated on magical items that it pours it's soul into. When i read the spoiler you just posted it did not remind of anything else from any other mainstream fantasy universe to the extent Voldemort does Sauron.

Okay, having studied Literature at length in my Degree, I'll offer a few things.

Firstly, Popularity =/= Quality. Just because a book sells a lot doesn't mean it is (subjectively) better than another. Some of my favourite books are written by relative unknown authors from other countries - not just fantasy stuff like the Witcher books by Andrejz Sapkowski, but Post-Colonial texts like The River Between by N'gugi Wa'Thiongo.

Harry Potter is written in a style that is a lot easier to read than Tolkien, and that's the long and short of it. Just like blockbusters do better at the cinema, Harry Potter sells more books; you have to remember that not everyone is able or even willing to read high fantasy.

The second thing worth mentioning is that all literature (particularly fantasy) is derivative.

If you want to get academic about it, then look up 'Structuralism'. This area looks at similarities between texts, and strips them down to their base levels. If you look at ancient myths, there are dozens of 'Sword in the Stone' stories from around the world - King Arthur, of course, but also in the Ramanyana, an ancient Sanskrit Epic, in Norse Mythology (Thor's Hammer) and even in Greek Mythology - Homer's Oddysey includes a bow that only Odysseus could string.

The point here is that these common threads serve a purpose, probably that of instilling in a younger generation the idea that there are some responsibilites, or tasks, that only you are capable of doing, either to develop a good moral growth or to cultivate a work ethic.

This swings back to fantasy quite well - fantasy is inherently about Quests, and is the modern form of the 'Bildungsroman', a coming of age story. Think about all of your favourite fantasy stories - chances are that the main character has to leave home (relatively young) and undergoes trials and tribulations that forever change them.

Just as Rowling has borrowed elements from Tolkien (and come on, the Worst Witch anyone?!), Tolkien has borrowed heavily from Norse mythology and still other sources. His work at Oxford centred around medievil and norse translations of epic poems - a rich tapestry of ideas to feed from.

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with borrowing from other texts - it's how the world goes around, and how inspiration is born.

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Namarie

I'm in love.

Apart from that I couldn't agree more.

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I have read all the Potter books and have seen all of the first 5 films and bits of the last 2. They are ok but I wouldn't go out of my way for them.
I got the sense that Potter's universe had some naming conventions that were suspiciously like Terry Pratchett's (Diagon Alley for example), but then again, there are those who would argue that some of Terry's are Dickensian in nature.
I have neither read nor watched Twilight - the adverts and reviews I have seen give me the sense of Hello! magazine with fangs. Too dull for words.
Maybe it is time for something new.

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Glad you agree!

And if anybody wants to talk about 'rip-offs', I lay Eragon down on the table.

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Namarie

Eragon isn't even taken seriously by it's own readers... Not that I am one.

Even though I have never read the inheritance cycle personally, I'll give it a go:

Shadow Assassin things = Nazgul
Dragonriders = Dragonriders of Pern and Jedi Knights
Urghal = Uruk Hai
Dwarfs = Tolkien dwarves without backstory and point of existance.
Plot = Star Wars
Brom = Obi Won
Elven mentor = Yoda
Eragon = Dragon with an E and sounds like Aragorn.
Galbatorix = Sidious

I couldn't help my self.

On ASOIAF.



On Inheritance Cycle

Yes, Paolini basically copied LotR and Star Wars, but I still liked it, even though I could predict hat was going to happen with 95%+ certainty.

If you want to critiise it though, you should at least get your facts right.

The Ra'zac are not Shadow Assasin things. But theu do paralel with Wraiths in some ways.

Then Urgal = Orcs, not Uruk-hai
Kull = Uruk-hai

I would also like to add:

Dragon Riders = Jedi
The Forsworn = the Sith
The Vardan + The Rebel Allaince.

Back to Harry Potter:

If you are saying taht Rowling taking ideas from Tolkien is not the same as Tplkien taking ideas from mythology. Wrong. Prior to Tolkein, there was very little fanatsy that wasn't myths, unless you think he had to have copoed Alice in Wonderland or somthing which is absurd.

Rowling's ideas from the first book in particular were inspired, but they were definatley her own ideas. Mostly. It i snot a rip-off.

Yes, it does not have the same literary value as LotR, but that is not what everyone looks for when they start reading.. It is nowhere near as bas as the Twilight (which I cannot abide), or as bad as Inheritance (which I also like). I would rather Tolkien wsn't critically analysed thougha s well because it takes rthe fun out of it.

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My thoughts exactly.

Though Eragon, I thought was quite a good read (although I've only read the first 2 books)

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-John Newton

I loved the inheritance series. Probably 4th favourite series of books behind Lotr (and all stuff related), Halo Novels and the Star Wars universe. I liked it due to its similarities to lotr , that is why my dragon is blue after saphira.

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I liked the first 2 Eragon books a lot, then the 3rd seemed like he didn't know what was happening and the 4th was awesome right up til about 3/4 of the way through.

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*spoilers ahead*



The first and second were good, the third was okay, but not as good. I didn't like the fourth at all. I didn't really look at any of the rumors/guesses at how things were going to go, but I had my hunch's; and everything played out exactly as I thought. Vault of souls? Exactly as I thought, though I didn't know where it would be. Also the only thing about the galbatorix fight that I didn't know was how he would actually defeat him.

All in all a disappointing read, especially since it was long...


Anyways, back on topic....

I wasn't expecting much out of the 4th one, so maybe that's why I thought it was good. However, I was very disappointed at how Galbatorix (I always want to say Ganondorf, lol) got beaten. And then of course with the third Dragon Rider. That really [word deleted] me off.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.