Dragon Sickness

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:20 pm

*** Hobbit Spoiler Alert ***

Ok…we have already had a significant discussion in one or two other threads of how some of Tolkien’s “shiny” characters have had their morals, convictions or inner strength dulled down by the film makers for the LotR series. Aragorn and Faramir are the most significant examples of these. It's generally thought by those here and elsewhere I've discussed this that the tarnishing of these characters is to bring them in line with the modern 'diet' of moviegoers. I personally feel it takes away something special from the characters (especially what they did with Faramir) but others feel it makes them more believable and accessible. I would like to throw out the question of turning the tables here though…

It is well known from readers that in the Hobbit the Dwarves in general are not really that useful for much of the book. They don’t even have any weapons early on, would have been spider food or permanent ‘guests’ of Thranduil without Bilbo, and have given little to no thought of how they will actually deal with Smaug when (if!) they ever get there. Even Thorin himself really isn’t that impressive of a character in his deeds except at a few points until near the very end of the story. In the film however we sense right from the start that these are some strong and dedicated (if somewhat naïve) Dwarves that are setting out. They are armed to the teeth and face off against Troll, Warg, Orc and Goblin with determination and skill. And Thorin is filled with the Heroic Persona in nearly everything he does and says.

So, do you think PJ will honor Tolkien’s words and have Thorin sink so low into the “dragon sickness” in the films as he does in the story? Morally he is a real weasel starting when they first run hiding into the mountain and discover the treasure. He tries to cheat Bilbo, flat out refuses to deal with the men of Dale fairly or honestly, walls up the gate, and, IIRC doesn’t even emerge to help his own kin at first. He does obviously have a dramatic shift back to the heroic (which I always found very fulfilling as a reader) at the end.

So, when the films are made do you think PJ will honor this dark period of Thorin’s development or will he gloss over it and make him look perhaps more the victim or something in between? I personally think you really need the full swing in both directions not only for Thorin’s own development but also to really make Bilbo’s dilemma and actions shine in the light they deserve.

Discussion?

SidTheSloth · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:04 pm

I think he will. We've already seen lots of made up relational tension in the first film and I don't think PJ will hesitate to do it again. Although perhaps Thorin will sit on all the gold for a different reason in the films...

Harfoot · **Posted:** Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:01 pm

Good thread, one to make you wonder which way PJ will take Thorin, will he kill off Fili and Kili as well? I think he will have to or Bilbo will not have a lot to do after Smaug is dead.

whafrog · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:21 am

I think PJ will handle Thorin correctly. It's kind of a no-brainer character arc that even he couldn't mess up. Also, I forget the actor's name right now, but he did a pretty convincing job with what he was given, and brought a level of gravitas to the dwarves' story. He seems eminently capable of handling that kind of shift.

Harfoot · **Posted:** Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:27 pm

It is Richard Armitage, he has done alot of British tv, Spooks was excellant. I agree he can easily handle the part.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:18 am

Not to sidetrack my own thread, but I need to get back into Spooks (MI-5 for those of us uncivilized viewers). We own and love the first four seasons but just lost track of the series after that. It's nice to get a reminder now and then of how far along it progressed.

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

@Beowlulf - It's well worth a watch, season 7 was the last truly great season but it was still good viewing up to the end. It's sadly missed from the schedule i feel :-(

Anyhoo, as for the main point of the thread, I'll be coming down firmly on PJs side with this one.

I've said in other threads that the LOTR changes to Aragorn, Faramir etc. don't really bother me as much as other people, I'm happy to divorce myself from the book and see the film as a completely different entity.

However, with the Hobbit I'm going to go even further and say that, for the most part, the changes PJ has made made the story are largely improvements .

I loved the film and was frankly thrilled to see how they expanded on the book with Radagast, Azog, Do Guldor etc. but I can totally see how some people would take umbrage to these sections and inventions.

HOWEVER, I really can't see how anyone can view the changes they have made to the dwarves as anything but a MASSIVE improvement. I love the book but the dwarves in it are absolutely awful, they are cowardly, often useless and wander from one set piece to the next getting outwitted and captured again and again. Thorin is a grumpy old git who at one point bows down before the Great Goblin and pays homage, it's so completely out of keeping with the world we know and love from the Lord of the Rings.

PJ and co have done an absolutely brilliant job at making the dwarves heroic and likeable whilst still retaining the major story beats of the book. The troll sequence is a good example of this, in the film the dwarves don't get outwitted and captured, they put up a successful heroic stand that is only falters in order to save Bilbo. Then, crucially, they end up in sacks like the book, it retains the spirit of the book whilst giving the dwarves something resembling dignity.

As for the dragon sickness question I feel they'll handle it in the same way, ie Thorin will still become obsessed with the Arkenstone and exile Bilbo but it will be built up far more and feel right at the time for his character. After all they've already set up his hatred of the elves in preparation for later events in Mirkwood, perhaps this will permeate into the negotiations at the gate; it may well be that Thranduil rides to the gate with Bard from the very start, giving Thorin good reason to refuse them.

If I'm brutally honest I think a lot of people that have criticised the movie (for things like Azog's CGI, the Bunny Sled etc.) really aren't giving the team credit for the massive improvements they have made to the rest of the story. I think they've done a damn good job of turning an incredibly twee (and wonderful) book into the kind of wonderful, heroic LOTR-esque story that Tolkien had in mind when he started rewriting the Hobbit.

Sticky Fingersss · **Joined:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 am **Posts:** 1776

Very well said Dr Grant

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:36 am

I agree with the changes to the Hobbit being mostly improvements as far as bringing the film to a more mature audience. I even called out in my opening post on this thread how useless the Dwarves were in the books to highlight how PJ has "improved" them in so many ways for the film.

I won't sidetrack this to get into the LotR changes (most all of which I also believe were positive though it's perfectly acceptable to be disappointed by some things that deviate much from your own impressions). I'm just looking forward to seeing how well PJ handles the fall from heroic grace of Thorin, especially in light of how much he has elevated the character already.

Amarthadan · **Posted:** Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:07 pm

Seeing as Tolkien tried to make the story more mature but in the end decided against it for the most part as it would rob the original of it's integrity, I think the movies may very well be an opportunity to actually make it more mature without said robbing. I think this is what makes me accept the changes in The Hobbit movie as opposed to the book alot easier than with LOTR.

I think they hinted at the 'sickness' with thror so much, it'd be amiracle if they left that out. However, I do see it going to Thorin being the ONE member of the family who overcomes the sickness. Where and when I don't know. Perhaps it never happens to him.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:08 am

Well, it's not the fact of having money that is corrupting, it's the love of money (that Bible verse is always misquoted), and what is Thorin trying to do? All he wants is his stuff back. While under most circumstances, that's ok, the first film set it up pretty well that he's obssessed with getting the mountain, and in particular the gold, back.

Dragon Sickness

Who is online