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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:43 pm 
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You're all hypocrites! Haha ;)

You're all willing to find and exploit loopholes yourselves and then preach to the good hearted, fluff munching rest of us :)

As we saw at Mansfield, no one is going to win any games because of Alfrid. And plenty of players win their games because of the meta based building of a "filthy" list rather than tactics alone.

After seeing him in action, I actually don't think he's op at all. It's just a risky way of paying for potentially more might. So in my mind, bringing this "Eolderman of Rohan" is a legitimate way of adding 20 points to a hero for potentially (with risk) increasing the amount of might the hero has.

At 500 points, your feral list see's the inclusion of Sharkey, doesn't it Damian? Shouldn't Sharkey feature with Ruffians? Is he there for theme? Or is he there because he's a cheap caster who can throw out immobilise of a 2+

Of course, easy for us all to tedious link the theme of our armies. Hobbits from every age ever with Malbeth. Well, Hobbits were at Fornost you know... ;)

Lets take a look at what lists do well at the tournaments... Is there any negative modifier for someone doing well because of their list building and combos? No. Do those people still win prizes? Yes :)

There is an "allied" mechanic in SBG and unless we're getting points for theme, why wouldn't people exploit it, when those who do well so often do :)

I won't win because of Alfrid. But he may solve some of my problems at 500 points. He may not, but won't know unless I try!

So be damned with you hypocrites!! Haha ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:58 pm 
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Playing devil's advocate slightly here, because its an interesting discussion and I'm interested in the opinions ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:27 pm 
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Oh you're absolutely right, as I said in my post, based on Mansfield I am being hypocritical. The all-hero list with Alfrid was something different for me that I wanted to try for a laugh, my army was never going to compete at that tournament so I thought chucking in Alfrid would just give them a bit of extra edge, which he did. I wanted to see how he competed, I have to say I thought he was really good, and made my army do far better than it should have. Make no mistake about it, even finishing mid-table he had a huge effect on my army. My feelings coming out of that tourney was that he most definitely was very OP it just happened that I hadn't picked a competitive army around him. As you guys pointed out in your tournament review, my feelings are the games he will unbalance are the normal armies (like your one) where he's just tacked on and hidden at the back.

It's not really the same as the Sharky thing, including Sharky alongside the Ferals is more akin to you using Sons of Eorl alongside modern day heroes. They're clearly models from different time periods but it seems fluffy enough on the table. Marsbar made a good point in another thread that Saruman never fights alongside the Uruk-Hai so having him leading an Isengard army is actually quite unfluffy/unthemed but of course no-one would say that. Broadly speaking, choosing your army from one list is normally a pretty good fluff/theme list.

And yes of course people exploit the rules loopholes, and then they get endless grief for it! I got it in the neck for Alfrid/Bombur, Ed for his Fell Beasts/Hobbits, Charles for his Watchers etc. you just have to decide if joining that club is worth Alfrid's in-game advantage.

I tried him out to see what effect he had in the games, it was interesting but I won't be bringing that list nor the Alfrid/Bombur combo along to another tournament. Of course you're allowed/welcome to do the same but, this thread is called changes to the 'Cavalry Rohan' army and you asked for "thoughts" on including Alfrid. My thoughts are, if you include Alfrid you can't then claim to be using all-cav-Rohan and doing well with an uncompetitive army, you've moved into cheesy power-list building. So, my thoughts are just that I honestly don't think you need it, I think you've got a cool army that's doing well and that people enjoy seeing turn up and playing against whether they win or lose. Make no mistake about it, throwing Alfrid in will change that, you just have to decide whether the in-game boosts are worth more than the knowledge you're doing really well with an underdog list.

Consider this reply full of smilies, I know you're playing Devil's Advocate and it is an interesting discussion, I just think we need to try and avoid getting to a situation where every Good army brings a solo Alfrid along for the 3 free Might rolls. Like you say, there's nothing in the rules to prevent it but, from a purely tactical point of view, there's not a single Good army that should not do this, we just have to hope that they won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Well Alfred ain´t much of a good choice for your Rohan army there Thermo, of course he is nice might boost for 20pts but he might be fatal on the list (according to some scenarios)
- 1st mobility, you like having a mobility type of army being able to adapt according to the scenario, watch what you have done on hobbit "rescue" scenario and see if alfred was there, im pretty sure he would be worthless most of the time, if not caught in melee and killed in a turn.
- 2nd sturdy, unlike your rohan cav which average defence goes around 5 to 6 (less the outriders) alfred with defence 3, 1 wound 1 fate he wont survive much along, hes statistically worst chances of survival than your squishy outriders which still have a horse to absorv wounds from shooting with some luck..
- 3rd numbers, you need numbers to tie up stuff while Alfred do his job, and that rohan army lacks on numbers for that purpose, but thats why you picked that army for.

You could give him a try, but im sure that tactically sounding he wont do 1/3 of what he should in your list for a number of reasons...
If you had a list compromissed of ahalf the army, lets say grimbold and helmingas, gamling with standart on foot and such... then maybe alfred would come handy for that boosting your footslogger heroes might by a bunch, getting high elves storm callers to restore alfred´s will or a wizard... and spending might points like drinking beer lol


In all, for extra 2 pts SoE all day of the week to kill stuff over Alfred on an all cav army type...


Last edited by Galanur on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:19 pm 
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(Exactly the type of discussion I want to generate ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:10 pm 
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I agree that the Son of Eorl is a better choice in this list for theme, and killing ability, but the fact is that deployment, numbers, protection etc. don't matter one jot with Alfrid. In every scenario (of the rulebook ones at least, can't recall how the new Hobbit ones deploy) he will be deployed within 6" of your heroes if you want him to be except Hold Ground where there's a slim chance he'll be isolated. Then, in turn 1, before anyone rolls priority, he rolls his three dice and gives you the boost. There is literally nothing your opponent can do to stop it. After that, he's done his job, who cares what happens to him? It's one of the 6 (I think we counted 6 on Saturday night at Mansfield!) ways that he's broken! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Yea I know that scheme before... I played it once and he used that on dwalin on pony... luck on my side had 2 ringwraiths and the golden king, all his efford buffing dwalin up on might to get him lost the next turn by giving gold to dwalin to flee when we got to breaking point :P

If you can´t solve Alfred problem giving might to heroes, just simply remove the heroe hes buffing, there isn´t much thing he can do when he gets 2 nazguls sap will and courage before a golden´s king promise of payment


Last edited by Galanur on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:59 pm 
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I dunno, I think Alfrid is a liability in low numbers, I can shoot alfrid easily and you are 1 man towards your break point.

I think like Dr.G said. Eowyn might be the solution.
Competative 500pts games are done after East Grinstead anyway (for you). It is 350pts, 600pts and 1000pts
So 600pts. Get Eowyn in and more dudes
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:18 pm 
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@ Galanur that's a lethal combination it seems so obvious but I never thought of it!

@ cereal yeah and furthermore if there's a Legolas on the board he's screwed lol

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:34 pm 
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want a further more lethal combination? get specters even still and force him to break off his formation with is meager courage... easier for you for an expensive heroe kill
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Thats true never much a user of shade spectres etc. I really should.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:07 pm 
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By the time a spectre is near alfrid will have used his wil and will be ready to die.
Also +2 courage from the horn means he isnt meager courage surely?
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:22 pm 
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no its not ment for Alfred, its ment for the heroe that get alfred buff.. its very easy to sap will with 1 nazgul on a heroe, then slowly drain out his courage.. then use the specters to pull that 1 off the line, if hes on horse the faster he aproax, then goad him to leave the safety of his army with the golden king lol


Last edited by Galanur on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:39 pm 
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the specters get more efficient with the golden king and lastly this only "kills the heroe" if the army is broken

If you want a permanent heroe neutralizer gets the following:

most of the army must be compromized of fear type of models, like black numenorians, morgul knights and specters, add golden king and 2 ringwraiths or 3 (this works best for melee heroes) and keep almost a constant powerfull heroe neutralizer


Last edited by Galanur on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Well yes but that's at least 300 points (so over half of your army) that's trying to take down Eomer whilst the other 400 points of Thermo's army rides down your 200 points of orc chaff.

Also, this isn't particularly specific to the the Alfrid discussion, it's more just a general and commonly used combo to take down heroes in the dying stages of the game. Thermo's decision on whether or not he takes Alfrid is probably not going to be based on the fact that he might come up against 2+ Ringwraiths, 2+spectres and the Golden King in one list at a 500 point tourney! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:47 pm 
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no but hes not picking well on alfred on an all cav army...
Gamling with standart despite being pricey would work better on a way...
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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:00 am 
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An interesting veering of the discussion!

If I brought Alfrid, it certainly isn't to have him footslogging behind the army doing anything, it would simply be, pre-first turn priority, to try and bump up Eomer's might with a quick one stop shot of all Alfrid's will. He can then go lie down somewhere away from the battle , as he's had his use! In my mind, it's like paying 150 points for an Eomer who may/may not have more might than when he started the game, rather than the 130.

Gamling with banner is too expensive at 500 points, with Gamling himself not being decent enough and who do you drop to bring him in? I'd rather have Erkenbrand all day long!

Including Eowyn is tough.

So this is the list as I would normally take it...

W1 - Eomer, Knight of the Pelennor (armoured horse)
3 Sons of Eorl
1 Rohan Royal Guard (horse)
3 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Outriders

W2 - Erkenbrand (horse)
2 Sons of Eorl
2 Rohan Royal Guard (horse)
3 Westfold Redshields
2 Rohan Outriders

To get in Eowyn with horse, shield and armour is the equivalent of dropping 2 mounted Royal Guard and a Westfold Redshield. Worth it??

Yup, looking forward to 600 points, already have my list lined up I think!

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:07 am 
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Well gambling isn't the greatest but the banner re roll can help with those anti cavalry charges and the problem you have with hold ground/high ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:14 am 
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Perhaps, but wielding a banner to cover cavalry is tough, as you can't cover many! But again, who do you drop for it? Just not as good of an option in my opinion!

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Tweaks to the infamous "Thermo" Cavalry Rohan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:18 am 
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Thermo wrote:
To get in Eowyn with horse, shield and armour is the equivalent of dropping 2 mounted Royal Guard and a Westfold Redshield. Worth it??


Really tricky but I reckon so. I think I've told you before that I rate more Heroes leading less warriors for all mounted Rohan. She gives you 2 Fate so can potentially represent the same 3 wounds of the guys she's replacing, she brings another F5 to your Fights to give you the edge over Uruks/dwarves etc. and of course as a Hero it's another 2 Might and Standfast. She also arguably draws attention away form Eomer and Erkenbrand by giving your opponent another Hero (who can Heroic Strike and knockdown his Heroes) to worry about. Finally it's cool to have the brother and sister team on the table!

Eowyn gets a yes from me. Just.

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