Dagorlad said



Quite apart from the Orc shamans looking like something out of Warhammer Fantasy, I agree with Dorthonion's input about how they're not really part of Tolkien's concept.

What really put me off them (about 5 seconds before I wrote this) is...

New topic! Ummm.... *Goes to think of new topic*

Got it! No, wait. Ah yes. Saruman is a powerful spellcaster, but is he worth his (now increased) points cost? Personally, my use of Saruman has completely changed with the new rules...

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?

I think Saruman is still worth it.

He can be used very well if facing all calvary armys due to his special rule. Many people might complain about Saruman's change with the palantir and his point cost. The good thing is that with the elimantion of Ultimate Sorreerus blast is that Saruman and Gandalf are a bit more even but Gandalf the White still has many special rules that make him better than Saurman. The differnece and strengths and weakness of both Gandalf and Saruman are:

Saruman

1. No elven sword

2. Less Strength

3. Has a palanitir

4. No ring

5. No your staff is Broken

See he is less points than Gandalf the White but The Grey Pilgrim however is the same but still has some ablitys that Saruman does not.

Gandalf the Grey

1. Glamdring

2. narya

3. Shadowfax

Gandalf the Grey would do better than Saruman due to a higher strength and with the elven ring can lets say "prolong" his life. His sword can kill easier and Shadowfax can run faster.

Saruman has a good advantage for if he has a good number of Uruk-Hai around him he can be well protected.

So in the end of all things I think Saruman is still worth it and can match The Grey Pilgrim.

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http://www.kingsofchaos.com/recruit.php?uniqid=zx958rx6

Also remember that Saruman can Immobilise and Command easier than GtG. With that in mind, I think he is still a match for the grey pilgrim. Hopefully I'll get a game in soon where I face the white wizard.

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Azaghal, King of Mickleburg

New topic: Goblins especially in tournaments. With a 50 model limit, the efficiency of goblins is greatly limited...

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Thror Clawhammer
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Goblins can still work well in tornaments
Take a drum and a 2 trolls, then they have a hard hitting force, and no problem reaching the 50 model limit

Also goblins are often under estimated, and trolls are feared more than they are worth

Meaning the goblins have freedom of movement in rocky ground, and can surround the enemy, while the trolls keep the enemy warry

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I know you said you wouldn't tolerate excuses, but I have a really good one

Yes, Goblins do have the useful ability to ignore jump and climb ests, and the trolls are very useful for tying the enemy up until they're overwhelmed by little bodies. and about lots of Goblins, 50 models may not sound like much, but when you put them down on the table, it looks very scary. in the last tournie i went o, there was a player i fought who had a Hasharin, a Hardrim Chieftain, a Haradrim banner bearer, and 46 Haradrim. that may not sound like alot, but when you put armies of that size down, the opponent starts to think 'There's no way i can kill all of that!'

You can also take a drum. very useful, especially the +1 courage modifier...

Goblins really benefit from the WOW factor, as Telcontar pointed out just laying down 50 mini's makes you opponent think. They will either have phenominal faith in their army or begin to re-think their plans, which means they are begining to react to you, and that is an advantage in any game you play.
Best tactic with Goblins in to gang up on the non-hero/low attack models. If you do this then you can be rolling 6-7 dice to their 1 (maybe2). Their Fight maybe better but even if they win they will only be able to kill 1 of yours.
Against Hard Hitting enemies like Aragorn and Boromir use trolls and Bowfire. This should hopefully reduce their stores of Might and Fate enough so that your little guys have half a chance against them. As well try to use scarificial gobbos against these guys, anything you can do to ties them up and waste their bonus' will help you in the long run.

It's pretty hard riting a 500 point list, but whne writing my 500 point tourney lists, I go for 2 things, trolls and might. You can easily reach the 50 model limit, and you can spend all those remaining points on juicy extras like trolls and shamans, and at leats two captains, soming cheap as chips, they are affordable might dispensers, able to rally numerous stand fast and heroic actions, whilst still punching a whacking great, (if low fight value) punch, and can really tip the balance when you've surrounded that elf hero that just won't die. The trolls are the most incredibly frightning thing to stare at across the table, as they rip rank and file apart like jelly beans, but concentrated bow fire can stop them easily, riders can literally run rings around them, peppring the enemy with arrows, I have taken down many a cheftian that way.
Drums are nice, but in a 500 point tournament game they are an indulgance, and a liability, as it only takes two arrows to silence it for the entire game, but generals will often make silly mistakes to silence it, throwing half they army at the ruins they are taking shelter in.

The main disadvantage goblins have though, is slow movemnt, in scenario orientated tournaments like the GT, they can be slow reaching the objective or escaping a board edge, they don't even have the ranged firepower to stem the enemy advance.

Another nice advantage of having so many surplus points, is you can equip some elite goblins (bear with me here!) who you can kit out with spears and shields for insane durability, or bows and spears to be the ultimate support unit, this is something even a minimalistic harad army cannot afford, as players will often create poor army lists to stretch to the 50 model limit, which we can reach without breakinga sweat.

All in all, I'd say goblins are one of the poorer tournament armies, and hard to use, but have their perks and thst inevitable wow factor.

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If you say gullible slowly, it sounds like goat's cheese.

The cheap cost of Captains is very effective - I've played a game against a goblin army which boasted fifteen Might with 6 Captains and Durburz, whilst my Isengard army had 2 - one captain...

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Thror Clawhammer
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Let's go back where we started...

Wargs have changed significantly since we last discussed them, and many people's views will have changed. So, let's hear it!

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?

Never mind wargs, I am being quoted! (Little ecstatic dance).

Back to business: unfortunately I have not got the new rules yet so I can only generalise: wargs as mounts give the baddies some more cavalry options. cavalry basically are hit and run, manoeuvre forces. Not sure about the white wargs - still waiting on those rules coming as well.

Will the next tactical discussion revolve around the use of puns and bad jokes as tools of psychological warfare?

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Strength in numbers is what I think is the only way to use wargs. With a shoot value of 5+ (of course this is TTT rules) for the bowmen, I think you should avoid them.

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Why not click me?

In the new rules, wargs have attacks, and are strogner than orcs - drastically changing their uses.

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Thror Clawhammer
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If we are talking Warg Riders rather than just Wargs, then I think the new rules make them more of a viable Cavalry force.
The higher strength of the warg and the now use of that strength when attacking makes them more into a 'hitting' force rather than a 'scouting' force.

Previously a usual tactic for Warg riders is to scout around the enemy and hitting the softer targets of Archers/War Machines then using their speed to aid the main attack and rob then enemy of spear bonus'.
'Free-people' players would often ignore them as their attacking power was relatively weak.

Now if you ignore them it is almost the equivilant of a horde of Uruk-Hai roaming around your backyard. Due to the more potential hitting power of the Warg itself Free-people players will have to elect to actually deal with the Warg rather than ignore it.

All round a worthy inclusion to an Evil force now rather than a bit of fun to waste some points.

Wargs... random puppy dogs... sometimes. The thing about Wargs is that if you use them properly, then they are a serious menace, if you don't, then you have just wasted however many points you spent on them. I will start with Warg Riders.

The increased strength of the Warg means that on the charge, then they can really dish it out. They do, however, fall down against a line of swordsmen backed up by spears. (As do all cavalry) But as NoW pointed out, if you can get your Warg Riders around the back of the Good Side, then they will have to divert forces to protect their rear, and if you can time this correctly with the attack of an infantry force from the front, then watch the Good side crumble. Also, you can set you infantry up with one flank anchored to a piece of impassable terrain, and deploy your Warg Riders on the other side of the impassable terrain. if your opponent chooses to concentrate his force on just one of your two parts, then he will be hit in the flank by the other. While this may not be as devestating as in Fantasy or 40K, a flank charge can still be a deadly weapon. If your opponent chooses to split his forces, then if your Warg riders get the charge, then they should be able to beat their half rather easily, and then get round to help the infantry. It is also worth choosing a Warg Captain to lead your Wargs, in order to declare Heroic moves, so you get the charge more often. Also, in the new rules, Wargs can keep on fighting once their rider is killed, the only downside of this being that they have to take Courage tests on a courage of 2 every turn, so they will not last too long, but hopefully long enough to wipe out a couple more of those irritating Free Peoples.

White/Wild Wargs (I will refer to them as White Wargs.)
Very useful indeed, especially with a 10" move. The new rules are not very clear about wether these Wargs are cavalry, but I will treat them as cavalry for the duration of this article. They can be extremely useful, e.g. you can countercharge cavalry so they don't get the charge bonus, and if you have an entire army of White Wargs, then a cavalry army means nothing. And the Chieftains! for those of your who don't have the new rules, their profile is as follows.

F: 5
S: 6
D: 5
A: 2
W: 3
C:3

M: 1
W: 3
F: 1
Pts 75

OUCH! 6 strikes on the charge, and the count as monstrous mounts, because they have a strength of 6! So is you have, say, 20 White Wargs, and 5 Chieftains against a cavalry army, then the Warg Chieftains, whenever thay get the charge, can go around dismounting the enemy cavalry.

Go the Puppy Dogs!

Not having the new rule book (well I could go get it, but it is a christmas present so...) my opinion won't be completely acurate but...

When I take wargs against my friends, they are not concerened with them, and instead focus there firepower at my beserkers and crossbow men, leaving my wargs to run freely around their force, however one of my opponents gives his bowmen shields, so then when I charge, he shields, and with is higher fight value he would win most of the combats
(They shoot my Crossbow men down to the last man, as I have uncanny luck with them both at ranged and in combat (once I had 2 crossbowmen who survived the whole game, killing about 12 guys with their bows (never missed, nor failed to wound), then another 8 in combat...))

However, if the warg riders can draw even 2 turns of opponents fire, that is 12 inches your army will have gained without casulty's, which can often prove very useful

But they can also serve as fast moving arrow shields... but basic orcs work just aswell as a moving shield, and are alot cheaper

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I know you said you wouldn't tolerate excuses, but I have a really good one

Telcontar, please refrain from posting stats on the website, as it infringes on GW's copyright.

New topic is Elves. Elves have a surprisingly low points cost - until you notice that the profile doesn't include anything. To make an Elf who can fight, it will cost you in excess of 10 points per warrior, which begs the question - are they worth it?

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Thror Clawhammer
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The White Warg stats were put on the GW site, so...

Low points cost!!, they are more expensive than the other basic troops, and don't come with anything

But give an elf a shield, (and armour if wood-elf), then it can shield and hold for a few turns if you have a bit of good luck

Have two groups doing this, one on either flank, and the opponent will either need to toss numbers in against the elves, splitting his force, and if the are positioned right, they can only get the outside elves, making numbers hard to bear, thus a large portion of the force is held up by small numbers, giving another part of the line equal or superior numbers

And elvish bowmen... They rule. Full Stop.
Well not always... but they are great most the time, thus the opponent is wary of charging into the bow fire, forcing the enemy into a small area, where numbers don't work

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I know you said you wouldn't tolerate excuses, but I have a really good one

Heheh... Once again, the rules have changed drastically Chineselegolas.

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?