This fall the day finally comes: The big budget LOTR show from Amazon will be released.

Regardless of the show being good (i have my fears) or not, it could mean big releases and changes for MESBG. Or does it?

I spent some time thinking about it and realized, things might not be so easy as they seem.

Firstly, GW had to even have interest in buying a license from Amazon to be able to use the material for MESBG. And so far we did not hear... anything in this regard? Not even the slightest hint that this could be a thing. And thinking that a corporation between Amazon and GW would be a BIG thing, this surely would have been announced by now?
One could argue that they won't do that before the "War in the North" expansion got released, in order to not draw attention from it. And that only after it, maybe even as late as summer 2022, we will get a super big surprise announcement.
So although it is totally possible GW was not able to get a deal or had no interest - I somehow highly doubt the second possibility - I would be really surprised if it not would happen at all.

But lets assume the deal already is sealed and we just have to get noticed.

How could GW handle the potential many, many new things from the show?

I already had a topic in this forum, where i asked how exactly heroes/armies of the first and second age were stronger than the ones from the third age. And exactly here, a problem will show up.
To which degree elves, dwarves, high humans etc were stronger in previous ages, can be debated. But stronger they were.

So If we now think on our current strongest heroes, warriors - e.g. Gil-Galad or the Balrog. We know from the books that Gil-Galad was by all rights the High-King of the Noldor and a exceptional fighter. But also that his peak, was just a shadow of what former Noldor leaders were capable of.
And if we talk 1st age - Melkor fielded Balrogs in great number (not a full army but nonetheless) and dragons that would put Smaug to shame.
Numenor at its peak was so stong, they defeated Sauron (with the Ring!) with ease.

My point is: If the new units and factions are supposed to represent at least halfway their power, there is no way they could be in MESBG with our current faction roster. Their profile values would explode beyond Gil-Galad and the Balrog and how do you wanna make a fair competition between say Rohan and an army of High-Elve Noldor, just arriving in Middle-Earth? Or between Numenor of 2nd age and Isengard?
So either the new factions would outclass the existing ones by far or they would have to water down their strength to make them fair opponents - which again would look weird and wrong. Or they new ones become so elite, that point wise, you would field 10 2nd Numenor models against 60 Uruk-Hai - see W40k Custodes.

The worst possible solution but also the most unlikely (i hope) would be that MESBG gets a complete overhaul with new rules, new army profiles etc. - in order to align all the factions better and come up with rules to make it happen.

Another approach could be that everything that gets released for the Amazon show is its separate system. Like Adeptus Titanicus for W40k. Which receives its own ruleset, maybe even different scale etc.

So I find it actually hard to imagine that MESBG gets extended with stuff from the Amazon show.

What are your thoughts on this?

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https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot.com/

The Amazon series is very strictly limited by the Tolkien estate to events in the 2nd Age. So after the War of Wrath and the fall of Morgoth up to Isildur taking the one ring in the Last Alliance. They are specifically not allowed to depict events of the 1st age or anything from the 3rd Age (the link with New Line will presumably about re-using overall imagery and designs of the peoples, armies and environments)

From the Encyclopedia of Arda: Key Events of the Second Age

1 Foundation of the Elven-kingdoms in the west of Middle-earth, Mithlond and Lindon.
32 Arrival of the Edain in Númenor. Elrond's brother Elros becames their first king, taking the name Tar-Minyatur.
600 The first ships of the Númenóreans return to Middle-earth.
1200 Sauron comes to the Elves of Eregion in a fair guise, and begins to teach them.
c. 1590 The smiths of Eregion complete the Three Rings of the Elves.
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin, and so reveals his true purposes to the Elves.
1693 War begins between the Elves and Sauron.
1701 Sauron's forces, after taking much of Eriador, are driven back into the East by an army of Númenor.
c. 2250 First appearance of the Nazgûl.
3255 Ar-Pharazôn, last King of Númenor, usurps the throne.
3262 Ar-Pharazôn takes Sauron as prisoner back to Númenor. There, Sauron begins to corrupt the Númenóreans.
3319 Ar-Pharazôn sails into the West to assail the Valar. The Downfall of Númenor.
3320 Arnor and Gondor are founded by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anárion.
3430 Formation of the Last Alliance.
3441 Defeat of Sauron by the Last Alliance.

A lot of story to cover, even if they do get to complete the rumoured full 5 series.

As for MESBG I do not think the game would need much more than the key characters and a suitable Numenorean army list. The units needed for 2nd Age armies are pretty much covered within the existing forces.

Ok that is pretty good to hear =) Although I mentioned the 1st age specifically because I read about it to be appearing in the show. I think it was this one preview picture were you see an elve in front front of a town and in the background two huge trees, each of them having a different color. So it was guessed this would even be earlier than 1st age?

Anyway in case you are right, I can agree mostly with you. Really looking forward to that Numenor extension! =D
But I think it would also a good opportunity to give the High Elves and Barad-Dur more models. I can at least smell a Sauron as Annatar model ^^

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https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot.com/

I think they probably have got the licence to make models for this ... if they hadn't got it, presumably they would be allowed to say they hadn't got it. But instead they are saying nothing!

On Amazon's side you'd think that Games Workshop might look a good partner, as it has a game that has lasted some 20 years and can be distributed worldwide.

I think for game balance they'd have to keep the profiles of men, elves etc. fairly similar to the current models, although I guess things like Numenoreans being fight 4 already shows they are better than later men.

I would guess if they start making models and it proves a success they'd try to produce a lot of the key characters as well as some new troops. Maybe we'll end up able to fight MESBG battles between Stephen Fry and Sir Lenny Henry, for those familiar with UK comedians!

So I reworked my opening post of this topic into a blog entry and expanded on my opinion

https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot. ... n-for.html

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https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot.com/

Do GW actually have a licence direct with Tolkien Estates though? I thought their licence for LotR and Hobbit is with New Line. Thus they have the same limitations on what can be referenced (nothing from sources other than the actual 4 books) and they are only allowed to "invent" within strict constraints for purposes of "game balance", although that does seem to have been very loosely interpreted.

As far as I am aware the only figure manufacturer to have a current contract direct with Tolkien Estates is Mithril, who can make any character from any of the books.

I assume the 1st age references in the Amazon series will be for background and context only as they are restricted like New Line were, but to 2nd Age reference sources (of which there is a well known story arc but little actual detail). The arrangement between Amazon and New Line/Jackson is probably maintaining the same look to the races, armies and environments. It saves Amazon a lot of time and money to reuse the background work already done rather than going through the creative and development process from scratch.

MESBG wise it would make sense for there to be an Amazon/GW arrangement matching the New Line/GW one, but commercially that is probably mainly to GW's benefit. Amazon don't need the distribution network and there are other gaming figure companies that would be able to produce a range of figures.

Games Workshop have a license with Warner Bros for the movies (New Line Cinema and MGM) as well as Middle-earth Enterprises.

The Tolkien Estate have only had one licensor, historically, and that is Harper Collins Publisher. That changed when Amazon signed an agreement with them, too.

Amazon's license appears to be a many-headed beast, but nothing confirmed.

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"That'll do it..."

Yes, the "Merchandising" cover-all could mean anything and with pretty much any partner, although depending just how strong Tolkien Estate's dislike of the New Line/WETA movies is it could mean a whole new set of sub licensees will be preferred.
New figures and tabletop game from CMoN? or worse HASBRO/WOTC?

Seems the free to play associated MMO is now officially dead though.

It's interesting that Game of Thrones had at least two lines of miniatures I think (a metal one and the current CMON plastic figures wargame) but there's never been a range with TV-accurate likenesses.

Similarly, Mantic did a Walking Dead miniatures game, but had the comics licence rather than the TV licence, so missed out on characters like Daryl.

It would be quite fun to see the MESBG rules applied to some other settings, as it's a great rule-set that could adapt to a lot of stories. It would, for example, probably work pretty well for Game of Thrones.

I don't think GW would go for this though ... Tolkien is a good fit with Warhammer as it probably helped inspire it, but I don't think GW would want to dilute their brand too much with many other licences.

MESBG does not scale up very well and Game of Thrones covered a lot more major battles than LotR, it was if anything even more "pseudo history" than fantasy.

Something like the recent TV adaptation of 'Wheel of Time' would be a good fit with the scale of MESBG actions, that at least has an advantage of bringing magic to the forefront and is a very obviously "fantasy" world.

There was definitely a scene early on in the Wheel of Time series that reminded me of the Buckleberry Ferry in LOTR ... four friends set out on a journey, pursued by a black rider!

Yes, the eyeless Myrddraal (Fade). One of the few things the series does very well, not quite as per the books but probably even more creepy.

Well we now got a title and definite list of events it will cover

https://www.polygon.com/22890563/amazon ... er-release

The Rings of Power
-The forging of the rings
-The rise of the Dark Lord
-The epic tale of Numenor
-The Last Alliance of Elves and Men

So I think they could really pull of big bunch of releases. I imagine a complete new army book with factions of the 2nd age:
-Lindon
-Eriador
-Arnor (as part of the realms in exile)
-Gondor (as part of the realms in exile)
-Numenor (good and evil)
-Dwarfs of the Blue Mountains
-Dwarfs of Khazd-Dum in the 2nd age
-Lorien in the 2nd age
-Greenwood (Mirkwood) in the 2nd age
-Mordor in the 2nd age

All of the them receiving new ranges of units, heroes and complete new factions.

Only drawback of this would be that it require GW to assign a much bigger allocation of resources and manpower to pull that one of - which I somehow do not believe they want/can do.

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https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot.com/

I think if Amazon are interested in licensing their TV show to a board game/miniatures I'd be surprised if GW weren't the ones to pick it up. They are much larger than CMON or the other possible options and did very well out of the LOTR film licensing. It would require them making a concerted move and investment in that direction but I can see the appeal to tying yourself up with the most expensive TV show ever made which is pretty much guaranteed 5 years of content creation.
I think the bigger block would be whether Amazon is interested. This isn't like the era of the original Star Wars film where the big money was made in merchandising, this is all about getting content for Amazon Prime Video. I'm unsure how that plays into interests in merchandising though - maybe you license things cheaply as your focus is building interest in the show?

That is actually an interesting thought.
Amazon might not care about licensing the show to anyone. At least not in the beginning. Game Of Thrones also did not have mugs, shirts etc from the start.
So maybe we will have to wait until the show proves to be a success? Although the time until we then would finally receive new content could be a very big.

On the other as already mentioned, GW does not need a license. Maybe the shows success is enough to give ideas for doing 2nd age stuff but not based on the show.
Or they get a license when the realize that due to the shows prominence, the sales of MESBG skyrocket.

Only time will tell =)

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https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot.com/

They cannot, their licence with New Line specifically precludes anything not published in the 4 volumes of LotR & Hobbit and I don't think even GW have the hubris to try and make a "not 2nd age" range and work around Amazon, there would only be one winner in a legal fight like that. GW are too big and too visible to sneak under the radar like the plethora of unlicensed LotR ranges around. Etsy is awash with them.

To make 2nd Age figures on their own GW would have to licence uniquely with Tolkien Estates, but can't as Mithril already have the gaming miniatures licence and are maintaining it. Although if they wanted it badly enough GW could undoubtedly buy out Mithril and obtain the licence that way.

GW have to work with Amazon if MESBG is going to be expended into 2nd age, but Amazon don't have to work with GW.

The trailer is up on Amazon. Not much to see, but it's due to hit the air in September. With War in the North in February, it's shaping up to be a good 20th anniversary.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a rock." -Will Rogers

I'm cautiously optimistic after seeing the trailer, but will have to keep reminding myself to take it easy and don't get too excited when the official trailer comes out.

I believe, and its been a long time since I followed this stuff directly, that Mithril have the same license as GW originally had. Their license is with that entity we now called "Middle-earth enterprises"

It seems that in the 1980s, Iron Crown Enterprises (I used to work for them, so this is vague and based on hearsay and maybe biased/confused), got a "gaming" license from Saul Saentz Company who neither knew nor cared what roleplaying or wargaming was. Middle-earth was not a fertile field for merchandising in the 1980s, especially after the not-great LOTR cartoon movies. MERP went on to being the second biggest selling RPG after D+D. Prince August in Ireland made an agreement with ICE. Prince August (aka Mithril) got a license for "Tolkien Enterprises" (Now Middle-earth Enterprises). TE were content to get a smallish license fee and likely the sort of brand enhancing capabilities of a premium range of miniatures attached to the second biggest RPG in the world (whatever those were). Crucially neither the Estate, nor the Enterprises appeared to give a toss what was used. There just wasn't enough money involved. Unfinished Tales stuff? Whatever, throw it in. Silmarillion references? knock yourself out. It's just that something shifted in the mid 1990s. I suspect there was a sense that A Major Motion Picture was now possible at an affordable price. Both the Enterprises and the Estate started sniffing money. Anyway, the first thing that happens is that Enterprises starts putting extra pressure on ICE, and Enterprises decides that Mithril has a "collector's license" and an "RPG license" but not a "wargaming license." Mithril made some army boxes around this time, and Enterprises shut that down hard. (The few "warbands" boxes became collector's items). The wargaming license went to Black Tree Designs for a while.

Then bam, actual plans for movies, MERP is shut down, RPG and gaming fansites were shut down, merchandising deals are announced. GW gets a "wargaming license" and Mithril is allowed toddle on regardless. I don't know why. There doesn't seem to be an actual reason. They don't represent a big lot of money. It's entirely possible that someone at Enterprises just likes them. Notably, too, none of the "out of bounds" stuff is in print over there too. They don't sell the Khamul anymore, the Unfinished Tales stuff is looong out of production. The only thing I can see on their website that pushes it a bit is that they have a "royal dragon of the first age" - not a named entity, just something that might be from the first age. So they don't have a different set of license terms as far as anyone can tell. GW also had held a long grudge against Prince August, apparently. And Prince August probably would shut down itself long before selling itself to GW.

Probably the key concerns with the current developments for miniatures enthusiasts right now are:
- Does Amazon really care about licensing (note the seeming lack of Wheel of Time anything)
- Will there be enough cool new visuals to drive new toys (note how the new Star Wars movies really didn't set the world on fire with cool new stuff?)
- Would it be worth GW's while? Are there going to be memorable battle sequences which would inspire demand for miniatures?
- This series will cover a very long time. Are we going to get enough exposure to any cool characters to make us go "oooh, let's buy that mini?"
- Would it be worth "our" while getting whatever GW does make? I could very much imagine them releasing a plastic core set (ala Escape from Goblin Town) and then a small series of low-rate-of-production "collector's" models for major characters.

Maybe they could just release a War of the Last Alliance set next year and call it a day.

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Dreaming of getting back to painting...any month now.

Interesting details, thank you.
MERP was, IMHO, the best game ever to come out of Tolkien's world setting. Many years of buying and playing that still colours my view on how things should look. I love the McBride artwork.
I hope the Wheel of Time is not the template Amazon use for supporting (or rather not supporting) Rings of Power. Wheel scenarios would be ideally suited to a MESBG scale game, plus there are so many named characters.

A war of the Last Alliance set would be great.

My money is on somebody like CMoN or Hasbro producing boxed board/mini hybrid games supporting the Amazon series rather than a GW style individual blisters approach.